997.1 C4S - seeking power upgrade; advice needed

[Arenki]

Hey guys,

Was wondering whether anyone has any suggestions regarding upgrading a 997 C4S (currently stock at 355bhp) to something a little more. I've considered the power kit upgrade, but I doubt the missus will be impressed if I spend 8k on my car just before Christmas. I was wondering whether anyone had found/come up with ways of finding more power. I was considering a remap but these seems like a 'bodge' job upgrade. I'm not considering any form of forced induction since I must confess my love for my unplugged-sport exhaust system and do not want to lose any of that devastating sound. I've heard stories about people installing X51 kit (or something like that) and noticing a benefit in both torque and bhp. Anyone care to suggest or recommend anything?

Kind regards

/A

[ROK]

sell it and get a turbo. anything under 25hp boost is underwhelming at best ... let alone very hard to attain.

[Callughan]

Unless fitting a supercharger anything you do will be a minor difference.

Change for gen2 C4S(maybe with X51) or C4 GTS.

[Gibbo205]

Hi there


If your car has a warranty or you want an OPC warranty then you can only fit original Porsche parts which were designed for your particular model.

So you could go with the X51 powerkit, but the cost will be circa £8000 for everything, which gives around 25BHP peak more power and upto 40BHP in the mid-range.

If your not under warranty then the most cost effective mods are with proven gains:-
1. 200 CEL Cats - Circa 15BHP across rev range.
2. Softronic Map - A friend just did this recently to a 997.1 C2S and he had X51 manifolds, but stock everything else, he got 25BHP extra in the 5000-6500rpm range and 10BHP peak more (7400rpm)
3. 997 Airbox mod - BMC Panel filter, Silicone hose, Resonator removal - At best you might see 3BHP, its more a sound modification.
4. X51 headers - Some mid-range improvement, circa 10BHP, not much peak, but softronic ideally needed to maximise.
5. Get as much weight out the car as possible - Back seats, subwoofer, accessories etc, about 30kg you can remove with ease.

Combing the above will see you circa 20-30BHP, but any warranty is void, the car will be loud and your emissions higher, though you should still pass a UK MOT test. The cost would be circa £650 for the softronic, £1000ish for the manifolds fitted, £1500ish for the 200 CEL cats and about £300 for the airbox modifications, so about £3500ish in total. This will give you close to the power increase the X51 kit gives you. If you do X51 kit as well you might and I repeat might just scrape 400BHP, but the best I've seen was 394BHP which was a friends car with X51 and 200 Cel CATS, though he was not running softronic map, he was running Porsches X51 map, softronic supposedly can give a tad more, but he had warranty and Porsche were OK with the 200 Cel CATS, shock horror.

So the best your gonna see really is 20-25BHP peak with 3-4k expenditure, possibly upto 40BHP in the mid-range with more torque, I'd say thats not too bad, but if you want a real noticable power improvement, get a 996 TT or 997 TT and then just remap it or fit a supercharger.

Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 22 September 15:46

Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 22 September 16:13

[996ttalot]

To give you an alternative to the X51 (or for those with x51 already) we supply and fit stage 1 through to 3 kits from Cargraphic. They have proven results since the packages have been developed on dyno as well.



As Gibbo said, try and ignore the headline bhp figure. It is the increase in the area under the curve that is important. Kit includes DME, Filter and full exhaust with headers that is TUV approved so no issues with MOT.

Here is the link to some of the stuff for your car.

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.php?/s,6,7,18,32...

[Gibbo205]

996ttalot said:

To give you an alternative to the X51 (or for those with x51 already) we supply and fit stage 1 through to 3 kits from Cargraphic. They have proven results since the packages have been developed on dyno as well.



As Gibbo said, try and ignore the headline bhp figure. It is the increase in the area under the curve that is important. Kit includes DME, Filter and full exhaust with headers that is TUV approved so no issues with MOT.

Here is the link to some of the stuff for your car.

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.php?/s,6,7,18,32...

Yep looks a good kit, I am sure you will agree that the majority of the gains come from the 200 cel cats and DME remap. The headers and axle backs give very little to no peak power but do help greatly with mid-range.

[Diesel130]

Power upgrades tend to reduce resale value and limit the target market. Better to upgrade to Turbo or GT3 IMHO.

[996ttalot]

Gibbo205 said:

996ttalot said:

To give you an alternative to the X51 (or for those with x51 already) we supply and fit stage 1 through to 3 kits from Cargraphic. They have proven results since the packages have been developed on dyno as well.



As Gibbo said, try and ignore the headline bhp figure. It is the increase in the area under the curve that is important. Kit includes DME, Filter and full exhaust with headers that is TUV approved so no issues with MOT.

Here is the link to some of the stuff for your car.

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.php?/s,6,7,18,32...

Yep looks a good kit, I am sure you will agree that the majority of the gains come from the 200 cel cats and DME remap. The headers and axle backs give very little to no peak power but do help greatly with mid-range.

As you say mainly the DME. Like I said it is all about the area under the curve that is important.

[Gibbo205]

996ttalot said:

As you say mainly the DME. Like I said it is all about the area under the curve that is important.

Softronic claim their remaps are undectable as long as you restore your original file before visiting an OPC.

Is the same true for your tuning packages?

[Arenki]

thanks for the replies guys, especially gibbo, much appreciated. I did briefly consider a supercharger, but I love the crisp feel of a naturally aspirated engine (few years ago I was an Evo nutter, go figure) so I'm going to investigate the above options and buy the missus a large amount of shoes (watch this space).

Just a note; I have zero intention of parting with this car at any point in my life. This car is a keeper. Whilst I'm also looking at buying a second 911 in a few years (probably holding off until the 991 GT3 pops up) this car has a very significant personal value to me therefore any concerns about reselling at some point are null and void.


Regards

/A

[Callughan]

Arenki said:

thanks for the replies guys, especially gibbo, much appreciated. I did briefly consider a supercharger, but I love the crisp feel of a naturally aspirated engine (few years ago I was an Evo nutter, go figure) so I'm going to investigate the above options and buy the missus a large amount of shoes (watch this space).

Just a note; I have zero intention of parting with this car at any point in my life. This car is a keeper. Whilst I'm also looking at buying a second 911 in a few years (probably holding off until the 991 GT3 pops up) this car has a very significant personal value to me therefore any concerns about reselling at some point are null and void.


Regards

/A

Supercharger has no lag and won't lose sound can add 80/100hp see tpc or Ruf. Good Luck C4S is great car;)

Edited by Callughan on Thursday 22 September 16:38

[996ttalot]

Gibbo205 said:

996ttalot said:

As you say mainly the DME. Like I said it is all about the area under the curve that is important.

Softronic claim their remaps are undectable as long as you restore your original file before visiting an OPC.

Is the same true for your tuning packages?

We employ the same method as Scott does at Softronic as we use their servers currently as a delivery mechanism to have Todd @ Protomotive do the tuning. Essentially the whole of the DME is read out and written back.

All remaps that are left on would be detectable.

Cargraphic works differently - they put a different chip in the DME. But then N/A cars are less noticeable because you don't have a boost gauge telling you either something is wrong, or the car is mapped

[Gibbo205]

996ttalot said:

We employ the same method as Scott does at Softronic as we use their servers currently as a delivery mechanism to have Todd @ Protomotive do the tuning. Essentially the whole of the DME is read out and written back.

All remaps that are left on would be detectable.

Cargraphic works differently - they put a different chip in the DME. But then N/A cars are less noticeable because you don't have a boost gauge telling you either something is wrong, or the car is mapped

Obviously its detectable when on the car but are you agreeing, that softronic and your own is undetectable as long as you restore your original map?

[Gibbo205]

Callughan said:

Supercharger has no lag and won't lose sound can add 80/100hp see tpc or Ruf. Good Luck C4S is great car;)

Edited by Callughan on Thursday 22 September 16:38

This is true superchargers are great, no lag, no sound reduction, if anything you get more sound as you also get supercharger wining noise.


Infact as Superchargers are so damn good, one does have to ask why are they not used more? Is it a cost thing?

[Callughan]

Gibbo205 said:

Callughan said:

Supercharger has no lag and won't lose sound can add 80/100hp see tpc or Ruf. Good Luck C4S is great car;)

Edited by Callughan on Thursday 22 September 16:38

This is true superchargers are great, no lag, no sound reduction, if anything you get more sound as you also get supercharger wining noise.


Infact as Superchargers are so damn good, one does have to ask why are they not used more? Is it a cost thing?

Koll's 997 C2 Ruf power delivery is awesome, prefer it so much more than a turbo!
http://www.youtube.com/user/mrdemon07#p/u/8/skhVvB...

[996ttalot]

Gibbo205 said:

Callughan said:

Supercharger has no lag and won't lose sound can add 80/100hp see tpc or Ruf. Good Luck C4S is great car;)

Edited by Callughan on Thursday 22 September 16:38

This is true superchargers are great, no lag, no sound reduction, if anything you get more sound as you also get supercharger wining noise.


Infact as Superchargers are so damn good, one does have to ask why are they not used more? Is it a cost thing?

I don't think superchargers are so good. Both them and turbochargers have major problems to overcome for them to work well.

On turbo charger, the main issue is heat generated because of the substantial rise in air pressure, but importantly power is delivered from say 2500 through to redline.

On most superchargers they can take a lot of power just to run (50hp), they don't deliver much past 3000rpm and so on.

In terms of cost, it is more about available space to fit both types of solutions.

[996ttalot]

Gibbo205 said:

996ttalot said:

We employ the same method as Scott does at Softronic as we use their servers currently as a delivery mechanism to have Todd @ Protomotive do the tuning. Essentially the whole of the DME is read out and written back.

All remaps that are left on would be detectable.

Cargraphic works differently - they put a different chip in the DME. But then N/A cars are less noticeable because you don't have a boost gauge telling you either something is wrong, or the car is mapped

Obviously its detectable when on the car but are you agreeing, that softronic and your own is undetectable as long as you restore your original map?

Gibbo, my view is that if you looked hard enough you could always find something. I know how Scott does his stuff and yes in theory what they are saying is correct. He is an expert in this field and is employed by many US racing car series to make sure that teams are abiding by the rules.

By putting the original map back in full (restore the entire DME) , then an investigation would not show the remap, but it could still show programming. After all it is normal for many reasons that a standard car has programming done to the DME e.g. adding retrofit items and so on.

I would therefore say that his (and therefore ours given that we use the same methodology) is the least dedectable way. To give you an example, REVO give you the option to reset to original, so the map will be the original, but since they encrypt the first 64k it is going to be detectable.

[Gibbo205]

996ttalot said:

Gibbo, my view is that if you looked hard enough you could always find something. I know how Scott does his stuff and yes in theory what they are saying is correct. He is an expert in this field and is employed by many US racing car series to make sure that teams are abiding by the rules.

By putting the original map back in full (restore the entire DME) , then an investigation would not show the remap, but it could still show programming. After all it is normal for many reasons that a standard car has programming done to the DME e.g. adding retrofit items and so on.

I would therefore say that his (and therefore ours given that we use the same methodology) is the least dedectable way. To give you an example, REVO give you the option to reset to original, so the map will be the original, but since they encrypt the first 64k it is going to be detectable.

Yeah I did consider softronic and even though Scott ensured me as long as you restore your original map it's not detectable and would not even show programming. There is no doubting he is an ECU/DME legend and I am sure softronic truly is undetectable as long as you restore your original file. As I have warranty I've decided not to take any risk, though the Cayman guys seem very happy with softronic and have had no issues.

[Xps911]

What did you do in the end?

[Arenki]

Xps911 said:

What did you do in the end?

was going to get a RUF conversion, then the roof off my house blew off and left me with a 12k bill. Still in the process of suing the insurers.

currently car sounds like a vacuum cleaner. Every time at start up the pulleys sound like something off a victorian mine train and theres an interesting buzzing sound at 4k RPM. not sure what it is, sounds like pressure is escaping so not entirely sure if my sports exhaust system is failing or something more sinister.