The "new" F1 teams are hopeless
Discussion
Anyone else agree that the "new" F1 teams, that is Lotus, Virgin and HRT, are useless and they are not getting any better? The first season was obviously going to be tough but they have been around for 2 years now and they are all still rooted to the back of the grid and, worse, don't seem to be improving at all.
2010 Singapore Grand Prix Qualifying:
1 Fernando Alonso [Ferrari] 1:46.541 (Q1) 1:45.809 (Q2) 1:45.390 (Q3)
18 Timo Glock [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:50.721
19 Heikki Kovalainen [Lotus-Cosworth] 1:50.915
20 Lucas di Grassi [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:51.107
21 Jarno Trulli [Lotus-Cosworth] 1:51.641
22 Christian Klien [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.964
23 Bruno Senna [HRT-Cosworth] 1:54.174
2011 Singapore Grand Prix Qualifying:
1 Sebastian Vettel [Red Bull-Renault] 1:46.397 (Q1) 1:44.931 (Q2) 1:44.381 (Q3)
19 Heikki Kovalainen [Lotus-Renault] 1:50.948
20 Jarno Trulli [Lotus-Renault] 1:51.012
21 Timo Glock [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:52.154
22 Jérôme d'Ambrosio [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:52.363
23 Daniel Ricciardo [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.404
24 Vitantonio Liuzzi [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.810
At this rate by around 2045 they might be challenging the likes of Toro Rosso (that is if Toro Rosso do not improve at all in that time ..)
2010 Singapore Grand Prix Qualifying:
1 Fernando Alonso [Ferrari] 1:46.541 (Q1) 1:45.809 (Q2) 1:45.390 (Q3)
18 Timo Glock [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:50.721
19 Heikki Kovalainen [Lotus-Cosworth] 1:50.915
20 Lucas di Grassi [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:51.107
21 Jarno Trulli [Lotus-Cosworth] 1:51.641
22 Christian Klien [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.964
23 Bruno Senna [HRT-Cosworth] 1:54.174
2011 Singapore Grand Prix Qualifying:
1 Sebastian Vettel [Red Bull-Renault] 1:46.397 (Q1) 1:44.931 (Q2) 1:44.381 (Q3)
19 Heikki Kovalainen [Lotus-Renault] 1:50.948
20 Jarno Trulli [Lotus-Renault] 1:51.012
21 Timo Glock [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:52.154
22 Jérôme d'Ambrosio [Virgin-Cosworth] 1:52.363
23 Daniel Ricciardo [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.404
24 Vitantonio Liuzzi [HRT-Cosworth] 1:52.810
At this rate by around 2045 they might be challenging the likes of Toro Rosso (that is if Toro Rosso do not improve at all in that time ..)
They are not doing well, but I guess that is an issue created by the rules around testing.
Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
SeeFive said:
They are not doing well, but I guess that is an issue created by the rules around testing.
Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
This.Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
Eric Mc said:
I remember when Williams were a joke (before their current period of uselessness).
I remember when there were questions on how long Fiat would keep paying for their team to run round are the rear of the grid.I remember when people were asking what the hell Honda was doing with it's money.
I remember when Jaguar was about to be closed down and people were asking what the hell energy drinks firms were doing buying F1 teams.
I remember when Project 4 was brought in to save a dying F1 team.
I still think that Mr Booth has a chance and that Lotus/Caterham could step up to the plate, even if I do question if they have the right TD.
I think that HRT need putting out of their misery.
Life Saab Itch said:
SeeFive said:
They are not doing well, but I guess that is an issue created by the rules around testing.
Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
This.Back a few years, a driver could get his arse in the chair, and a sim is no substitute. Look at the amount of upgrades that have been fitted to all teams that have failed on a Friday morning. Wind tunnel is also restricted, and with the focus on aero, that is not going to help when the car is so under-developed compared to the others.
If the new teams are required to step up to the plate, then the FIA need to cut them some slack on testing.
interestingly, the teams are talking about having to double up on trackside staff as it is to cope with the ever increasing calender, which fly's in the face of them dumping test terms on cost grounds a few years back.
I think testing is actually causing all the teams issues, and it certainly not helping new drivers come along either, I would suggest there's a case for having more testing, not less and to keep the costs down, make it every Monday after the race weekend would be a start.
It's all relative though. Knowing what we now know of the plans of the other teams looking for a slot last year (USF1, Campos, et al), had two of these made it to the grid, there's every chance Lotus, HRT and Virgin would be classed as lower mid-field. Remove them and we'd be having the same thread about Toro Rosso, Renault and Force India.
Looking back over the past decade or so, there's only ever been one truly new team that's turned up and become a serious player: Stewart, which became Jaguar (Ford) which of course became Red Bull. It took them, what - 12 years? Mercedes, formally Brawn, formally Honda, formally BAR are getting there but will most likely take a similar amount of time (I know they got there with Brawn but this hasn't been sustained since).
Personally, I think the new teams are giving it a good go in impossibly difficult conditions - I only have doubts over HRT for no reason other than they are totally devoid of any personality or passion.
Looking back over the past decade or so, there's only ever been one truly new team that's turned up and become a serious player: Stewart, which became Jaguar (Ford) which of course became Red Bull. It took them, what - 12 years? Mercedes, formally Brawn, formally Honda, formally BAR are getting there but will most likely take a similar amount of time (I know they got there with Brawn but this hasn't been sustained since).
Personally, I think the new teams are giving it a good go in impossibly difficult conditions - I only have doubts over HRT for no reason other than they are totally devoid of any personality or passion.
i don't think anyone would shed a tear over HRT. I was a bit disappointed with team lotus this year, using the powertrain from redbull and getting nowhere, but then again STR use the ferrari powertrain and they're rubbish too. Virgin might be a bit better next year with resource from Mclaren but will probably still struggle.
the problem is that the cars are all about aero, and that costs a lot of money. we can't, under the current regs, have an underdog that mixes it up due to a lucky call and plucky driver. hence why redbull are utterly dominant, even against the other massive teams.
i guess we'll have to see if they're still around in 2013 as that'll be their only chance to get off the bottom rung.
the problem is that the cars are all about aero, and that costs a lot of money. we can't, under the current regs, have an underdog that mixes it up due to a lucky call and plucky driver. hence why redbull are utterly dominant, even against the other massive teams.
i guess we'll have to see if they're still around in 2013 as that'll be their only chance to get off the bottom rung.
rampageturke said:
thats because renaults car at singapore was a dismal failure, I don't see it happening over and over again. It's nothing to base things off
But Lotus's car was not a dismal failure, i.e. it was better for that circuit.Also remember the other teams have Kers whereas the bottom 3 dont (yet
) Pole was a bout a second up on last year with the lotus times not moving, give them the extra 80hp and you would see a difference especially as the reg changes were designed to remove downforce which would make the cars slower anyway.Edited by luke g28 on Tuesday 27th September 15:59
Gaz. said:
Eric Mc said:
I remember when Williams were a joke (before their current period of uselessness).
Funny 'joke'...1978 - 9th (with one driver, first season as constructor)
1979 - 2nd
1980 - WCC & WDC
1981 - WCC
1982 - 4th (WDC)
1983 - 4th
1984 - 6th
1985 - 3rd
1986 - WCC
1987 - WCC & WDC
1988 - 7th
1989 - 2nd
1990 - 4th
1991 - 2nd
1992 - WCC & WDC
1993 - WCC & WDC
1994 - WCC
1995 - 2nd
1996 - WCC & WDC
1997 - WCC & WDC
1998 - 3rd
1999 - 5th
2000 - 3rd
2001 - 3rd
2002 - 2nd
2003 - 2nd
2004 - 4th
2005 - 5th
2006 - 8th
2007 - 4th
2008 - 8th
2009 - 7th
2010 - 6th
2011 - 9th
Love to see them back at the front again.
DanDC5 said:
HRT imo are purely on borrowed time, they bring nothing on any level to the sport.
Not sure I agree. Sure, last season they were nowhere near ready and shouldn't have been there, but this season they are the most improved of the three teams in question and I believe are ahead of Virgin in the championship - and have had the pace of them on occasion too, so it's not just a fluke.Lotus for me has been a disappointment this season as I really thought they'd close the gap to midfield, but they don't seem to have gained much at all.
I agree that its harder for them to catch up with no testing, but I also think the game has changed..
The problem with the testing is its too late - testing got reduced and eventually banned on cost grounds, so all the teams went and bought simulation rigs, large amounts of computer power for data modelling and drive simulators etc and a wind tunnel if they didn't have one already. All of these are used far more extensively now than they were before the test ban. I doubt if any money was saved by the test ban and if testing was permitted again on any scale they still have the data models/rigs/tunnels which obviously they wont stop using. So all it means is the top teams will be able to validate the huge amount of data they have, the lower teams that can't afford to do huge amounts of modelling/simulator/rig work will still have less to go on.
If I recall correctly I saw a picture someone took on a Lotus factory tour where they were preparing to install a rig and they were expanding the factory at the same time. Now there appears to be rumour of them moving to or near Silverstone, so I don't know if they will run out of two bases or leave Norfolk.
Fernandes has also said if improvements are not forthcoming in 2012 heads will roll, I take that as being directly aimed as Gascoyne.
The problem with the testing is its too late - testing got reduced and eventually banned on cost grounds, so all the teams went and bought simulation rigs, large amounts of computer power for data modelling and drive simulators etc and a wind tunnel if they didn't have one already. All of these are used far more extensively now than they were before the test ban. I doubt if any money was saved by the test ban and if testing was permitted again on any scale they still have the data models/rigs/tunnels which obviously they wont stop using. So all it means is the top teams will be able to validate the huge amount of data they have, the lower teams that can't afford to do huge amounts of modelling/simulator/rig work will still have less to go on.
If I recall correctly I saw a picture someone took on a Lotus factory tour where they were preparing to install a rig and they were expanding the factory at the same time. Now there appears to be rumour of them moving to or near Silverstone, so I don't know if they will run out of two bases or leave Norfolk.
Fernandes has also said if improvements are not forthcoming in 2012 heads will roll, I take that as being directly aimed as Gascoyne.
On the OP, there is too many variants between this season to be able to compare the times properly.
Remember we now have Pirelli tyres, KERS and DRS (KERS not being a factor for them back 3), and these three make a difference.
What you have to remember is the three new teams are completely new teams, and not a re-brand like all of the rest of the "new teams" that have entered F1 other the years. They do not have years worth of data to use and have the ability to test like the established teams were able to.
Remember we now have Pirelli tyres, KERS and DRS (KERS not being a factor for them back 3), and these three make a difference.
What you have to remember is the three new teams are completely new teams, and not a re-brand like all of the rest of the "new teams" that have entered F1 other the years. They do not have years worth of data to use and have the ability to test like the established teams were able to.
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