NHS screw up, my parents pay?
Discussion
My 85 yr old father has had a long running battle with Angina, he had 3 heart attacks in the 70's then in the 80's had a triple heart bypass and in 2002 had a Pace Maker fitted.
All was well until 3 years ago when the Diabetes (which can go hand in hand with Angina) really kicked in. He has had 3 toes of one foot and half his other foot amputated. He has been in and out of hospital for the last 3 years and when he was out my 83 year old mother had to look after him, both my Brother and I live a distance away but in an emergency can be there within 2 hours.
My Dad could manage to walk down to the end of the garden with the help of a Zimmer frame and was slowly gaining strength with my mothers constant help. He had a catheter and bag fitted as he had lost the muscles to control his bladder.
All was going well until 4 weeks ago when a doctor at the local surgery intructed a nurse to visit and see if my Dad could manage to pass water without the catheter. No luck so 12 hours later they reinserted the catheter. A day after my Dad started to feel weak and poorly and felt sick all of the time and had chronic diarrhea.
Two days later my now very worried mum called a doctor who just said it was bug, wouldn't come to see my dad and said to feed him up.
The next day a Saturday and my dad had really gone downhill, he could not talk, had lost weight and could not control his bowles and breathing was laboured. An emergency doctor was called out, he eventually turned up, quickly checked my dad and said he just needed feeding up, 'a bit of toast maybe'.
My mum had managed to get a some porridge and energy milk shake into him but he was still very weak.
On Monday morning I recieved a call from my Mum at 0430hrs to say that the Ambulance was there and they were taking Dad to hospital as his breathing was fast and irregular and his tempereture was too high.
When I arrived at the A&E, it turned out that Dad was in a very bad way. When a catheter is removed or replaced in a patient that has had it for a long time (8 mths), it is standard procedure to put the patient on a course of antibiotics to clear up the infection and gunk that is present around the catheter of a long term user. This course of antibiotics was NOT prescribed or given. So the infection and gunk had been shoved back into the body, shutting down my Dad's kidneys and infecting his bladder and bowels.
My dad was moved to Critical care (ITU) where he spent 5 days slowly getting better, the outlook was not good for the first 3 days and the senior nurse said that he was touch and go and that they would not resuscitate if his heart stopped. The Pacemaker kept him going thank god. But you can imaging the strain this was having on my mother.
As far as I am concerned my Father was nearly killed by a major mistake on the part of the doctor who did not follow the correct procedure regarding catheters, and two cases of negligence by the 2 doctors (one who could not even visit and the second who clearly could not understand that the human body does not deteiriate that quickly through lack of food) It almost seemed as if the a
holes were accusing my Mother of neglecting to feed my Dad.
My Dad has now been in an old peoples ward for 3 weeks and they have decided they want him out.
He cannot move his legs, he is too weak
He is still incontinent, he was not before the catheter was removed.
He needs a hoist to move him from bed to chair and his blood pressure drops when he is moved.
He needs constant care and a special bed.
Social Services has decided that he is to be sent home at the end of this week.
He is to recieve care 4 times a day, the rest of the time it is up to my 83 year old mother.
He will get to borrow the bed and hoist, there is no room for either in their bungalow. The only other room is upstairs and my mum has a false knee and cannot use a lot of stairs, she would also not be able to hear my father if he had problems.
Not only is this all bad enough, but social services has said that they will look into my parents bank accounts and that if decided that they have enough money, my parents will pay for this extra care!
How dare they expect them to pay when it is the doctors failure that caused all of this.
And why should my mothers life be screwed over because of this? She has suffered enough already. I cannot see why the NHS authority cannot get my father into a decent rehabilitation home to get him better and return him in a physical condition where he can at least move around and keep himself clean.
Sorry for the long post, but the details matter. If this all goes ahead, we'll have to look at calling in solicitors so the NHS will be forced to pay for it's mistakes, just enough to keep dad in a decent care home near to where my mum can visit.
All was well until 3 years ago when the Diabetes (which can go hand in hand with Angina) really kicked in. He has had 3 toes of one foot and half his other foot amputated. He has been in and out of hospital for the last 3 years and when he was out my 83 year old mother had to look after him, both my Brother and I live a distance away but in an emergency can be there within 2 hours.
My Dad could manage to walk down to the end of the garden with the help of a Zimmer frame and was slowly gaining strength with my mothers constant help. He had a catheter and bag fitted as he had lost the muscles to control his bladder.
All was going well until 4 weeks ago when a doctor at the local surgery intructed a nurse to visit and see if my Dad could manage to pass water without the catheter. No luck so 12 hours later they reinserted the catheter. A day after my Dad started to feel weak and poorly and felt sick all of the time and had chronic diarrhea.
Two days later my now very worried mum called a doctor who just said it was bug, wouldn't come to see my dad and said to feed him up.
The next day a Saturday and my dad had really gone downhill, he could not talk, had lost weight and could not control his bowles and breathing was laboured. An emergency doctor was called out, he eventually turned up, quickly checked my dad and said he just needed feeding up, 'a bit of toast maybe'.
My mum had managed to get a some porridge and energy milk shake into him but he was still very weak.
On Monday morning I recieved a call from my Mum at 0430hrs to say that the Ambulance was there and they were taking Dad to hospital as his breathing was fast and irregular and his tempereture was too high.
When I arrived at the A&E, it turned out that Dad was in a very bad way. When a catheter is removed or replaced in a patient that has had it for a long time (8 mths), it is standard procedure to put the patient on a course of antibiotics to clear up the infection and gunk that is present around the catheter of a long term user. This course of antibiotics was NOT prescribed or given. So the infection and gunk had been shoved back into the body, shutting down my Dad's kidneys and infecting his bladder and bowels.
My dad was moved to Critical care (ITU) where he spent 5 days slowly getting better, the outlook was not good for the first 3 days and the senior nurse said that he was touch and go and that they would not resuscitate if his heart stopped. The Pacemaker kept him going thank god. But you can imaging the strain this was having on my mother.
As far as I am concerned my Father was nearly killed by a major mistake on the part of the doctor who did not follow the correct procedure regarding catheters, and two cases of negligence by the 2 doctors (one who could not even visit and the second who clearly could not understand that the human body does not deteiriate that quickly through lack of food) It almost seemed as if the a
holes were accusing my Mother of neglecting to feed my Dad.My Dad has now been in an old peoples ward for 3 weeks and they have decided they want him out.
He cannot move his legs, he is too weak
He is still incontinent, he was not before the catheter was removed.
He needs a hoist to move him from bed to chair and his blood pressure drops when he is moved.
He needs constant care and a special bed.
Social Services has decided that he is to be sent home at the end of this week.
He is to recieve care 4 times a day, the rest of the time it is up to my 83 year old mother.
He will get to borrow the bed and hoist, there is no room for either in their bungalow. The only other room is upstairs and my mum has a false knee and cannot use a lot of stairs, she would also not be able to hear my father if he had problems.
Not only is this all bad enough, but social services has said that they will look into my parents bank accounts and that if decided that they have enough money, my parents will pay for this extra care!
How dare they expect them to pay when it is the doctors failure that caused all of this.
And why should my mothers life be screwed over because of this? She has suffered enough already. I cannot see why the NHS authority cannot get my father into a decent rehabilitation home to get him better and return him in a physical condition where he can at least move around and keep himself clean.
Sorry for the long post, but the details matter. If this all goes ahead, we'll have to look at calling in solicitors so the NHS will be forced to pay for it's mistakes, just enough to keep dad in a decent care home near to where my mum can visit.
I feel for you.
My mum nearly died in a certain hospital due to neglect and indifference by the nurses.
Myself and my sister have medical knowledge and it was only on our insistence to the sister in charge providing me her name and surname to make a complaint that the consultant was finally called to take a look.
I could tell by his panic my mum wouldn't have lasted much longer (she had septicemia which we had been telling them for 3 days. Ironically she got badly deeply scratched on the inside of her forearm by my nephews rabbit which was the cause. The hospital said as it wasn't a wild rabbit this wasn't the cause - they ignored the fact any rabbits claws will have soil and rabbit st / piss in them).
He immediately transferred her to ICU where she spent 2 weeks.
She is out now but there are long term effects on her health. Her doctors response is 'well you did nearly die'. She won't make a fuss as she is of the generation that won't question the medical profession.
My mum nearly died in a certain hospital due to neglect and indifference by the nurses.
Myself and my sister have medical knowledge and it was only on our insistence to the sister in charge providing me her name and surname to make a complaint that the consultant was finally called to take a look.
I could tell by his panic my mum wouldn't have lasted much longer (she had septicemia which we had been telling them for 3 days. Ironically she got badly deeply scratched on the inside of her forearm by my nephews rabbit which was the cause. The hospital said as it wasn't a wild rabbit this wasn't the cause - they ignored the fact any rabbits claws will have soil and rabbit s
t / piss in them). He immediately transferred her to ICU where she spent 2 weeks.
She is out now but there are long term effects on her health. Her doctors response is 'well you did nearly die'. She won't make a fuss as she is of the generation that won't question the medical profession.
Suing the NHS will only weaken it and will have no affect on the useless consultant. If you want to make a difference complain, tell your local politician and kick up a fuss that way.
To offer a different POV when my mum was dieing we knew she had cancer for months. Right up until the end the hospital refused to diagnose her. Why? becuase they are scared to unless they have 100% undisputable proof for fear of getting sued. The result, we could not get palative care grants and it caused more upset for the family.
To offer a different POV when my mum was dieing we knew she had cancer for months. Right up until the end the hospital refused to diagnose her. Why? becuase they are scared to unless they have 100% undisputable proof for fear of getting sued. The result, we could not get palative care grants and it caused more upset for the family.
From my very limited understanding of this you are going to face an uphill battle with regard to suing for malpractice. It will time, potential months if not years to come to any kind of viable conclusion. Moreover, what do you want from the conculsion. Are you after financial compenation for your father and mother, or do you want the acknowledgement that a mistake has been made and a review of process to help ensure it does not happen (or is less likely to happen again).
Depending upon what you father wants (because this is his choice, not yours), you need to then either contact a specialist legal bod or talk to PALS and see if you can raise a complaint and have it handled in a way that is meaningful.
I have no idea about the first option, but I am sure others here and elsewhere can/will point you in the right direction, but I know a great deal about the second option, having been through it with my lass before and after her death.
You see, if you go down the first route, you become mired in a process that is long winded, time consuming and I do believe could be expensive. If you go down the PALS route, something else happens. If you write a complaint to the hospital NOW, indicating your case and the fact that your father cannot be moved home, that there is NO viable support available, then they will listen. Moreover, if you also suggest that you will refuse to have him home, for reasons of his own safety and care, then they cannot force him home.
You need to lay out you case very clearly and you need to put in all the relevant details including the failings of the GP's etc. You want the PCT to review his case with the intention of highlighting and chnaging the process of care for someone in a similar situation. If you do this, in effect projudice or agenda, with the intention of a) helping your father get the best care he needs b) ensure that that those who potentially follow in your father's footsteps get the quality of care they deserve, you are likely to get a far better response from the PCT than you will of you go down the legal route.
Moreover, there is also another part of this. In order to support your father, you need to in effect become his advocate, his voice in the hosiptal. You have to be there, be involved and take an active interest in this man's life. You need to build a relationship with the staff there and keep asking the kinds of questions whereby they also know that he does not have the support he needs. The NHS is full of human beings who do care. it is also staffed with people who just see patients. You can help and let them know that this is a well loved member of your family and you want what is best for him.
This may all seem long winded and I hope what I have written makes sense - this is a subject that is very very close to my own heart as surgeon arrogance made our lives very hard just one year and a bit ago.
Please, before you take any actions, step back for a few moments and have a think about what it is you want to achieve by way of interaction with the NHS. What is your objective. What points are negotiable? What are not? What are your main concerns? Then decide what it is you want to do. But only then.
I hope your father gets the help he needs today and from now on. I know, it's very hard to watch and makes you seethe inside when they screw up, but you have to keep calm and very very focused. All the best.
Depending upon what you father wants (because this is his choice, not yours), you need to then either contact a specialist legal bod or talk to PALS and see if you can raise a complaint and have it handled in a way that is meaningful.
I have no idea about the first option, but I am sure others here and elsewhere can/will point you in the right direction, but I know a great deal about the second option, having been through it with my lass before and after her death.
You see, if you go down the first route, you become mired in a process that is long winded, time consuming and I do believe could be expensive. If you go down the PALS route, something else happens. If you write a complaint to the hospital NOW, indicating your case and the fact that your father cannot be moved home, that there is NO viable support available, then they will listen. Moreover, if you also suggest that you will refuse to have him home, for reasons of his own safety and care, then they cannot force him home.
You need to lay out you case very clearly and you need to put in all the relevant details including the failings of the GP's etc. You want the PCT to review his case with the intention of highlighting and chnaging the process of care for someone in a similar situation. If you do this, in effect projudice or agenda, with the intention of a) helping your father get the best care he needs b) ensure that that those who potentially follow in your father's footsteps get the quality of care they deserve, you are likely to get a far better response from the PCT than you will of you go down the legal route.
Moreover, there is also another part of this. In order to support your father, you need to in effect become his advocate, his voice in the hosiptal. You have to be there, be involved and take an active interest in this man's life. You need to build a relationship with the staff there and keep asking the kinds of questions whereby they also know that he does not have the support he needs. The NHS is full of human beings who do care. it is also staffed with people who just see patients. You can help and let them know that this is a well loved member of your family and you want what is best for him.
This may all seem long winded and I hope what I have written makes sense - this is a subject that is very very close to my own heart as surgeon arrogance made our lives very hard just one year and a bit ago.
Please, before you take any actions, step back for a few moments and have a think about what it is you want to achieve by way of interaction with the NHS. What is your objective. What points are negotiable? What are not? What are your main concerns? Then decide what it is you want to do. But only then.
I hope your father gets the help he needs today and from now on. I know, it's very hard to watch and makes you seethe inside when they screw up, but you have to keep calm and very very focused. All the best.
Thank you for all of your replies, especially Driving_Me_Nuts.
This is not an opportunity for us to get some cash in some court case. The only time I would want to see money awarded in a court case would be if my parents were having to pay for care out of their own money as an after effect of the mistakes that were made.
All I'm interested in (as is the rest of my family), is my Dad being helped to get back to the level of health that he had prior to the mistakes and for my Mum not to be put under undue stress and worry whilst this takes place.
We will speak to PALs today and see if they can help us, and what we can all do to ensure that my parents lives are put first.
There was a bit of hope yesterday, my Dad was able to stand up for a shortwhile for the first time yesterday and managed to move around the edge of the bed a bit. I think the idea of social services emptying his bank account has given him a bit of a kick up the bum....tight wad.
This is not an opportunity for us to get some cash in some court case. The only time I would want to see money awarded in a court case would be if my parents were having to pay for care out of their own money as an after effect of the mistakes that were made.
All I'm interested in (as is the rest of my family), is my Dad being helped to get back to the level of health that he had prior to the mistakes and for my Mum not to be put under undue stress and worry whilst this takes place.
We will speak to PALs today and see if they can help us, and what we can all do to ensure that my parents lives are put first.
There was a bit of hope yesterday, my Dad was able to stand up for a shortwhile for the first time yesterday and managed to move around the edge of the bed a bit. I think the idea of social services emptying his bank account has given him a bit of a kick up the bum....tight wad.
sinizter said:
mph1977 said:
and for all the private secotr = good and public sector = evil , i would remind you that GPs are private contractors and generally not NHS employees...
And very controlled by the PCT.failures in basic clinical practice are down to GP laziness and/or ignorance , because just like every other part of the private sector in healthcare they know the NHS acute services are there to bail them out...
K77 CTR said:
Who told you that it's routine to give antibiotics when changing catheters? The only time I've known it to be protocol is immediately post joint replacement surgery.
I change catheters frequently and we never give antibiotics.
The Paramedic, the doctor in A&E, the SRN in Critical Care, even a good mate who is a senior mortitan expressed surprise (almost anger) that antibiotics were not prescribed for the removal of a LONG TERM catheter (8ths). I'm not in the profession, I am just repeating their immediate impressions when told how we got to this point.I change catheters frequently and we never give antibiotics.
Also the fact that my father went from reletivley healthy to deaths door in 5 days with kidney failure and sever bladder infection would seem to back this up. The only thing that occured prior to this was the catheter removal and reinsertion without antibiotics. He started going downhill the day after it was done.
K77 CTR said:
Who told you that it's routine to give antibiotics when changing catheters? The only time I've known it to be protocol is immediately post joint replacement surgery.
I change catheters frequently and we never give antibiotics.
Different places have different protocols , some places will give IM gentamicin 80mg for any thing other than initial insertion, other places will only give Gentamicin and then often in a higher dos it if it;s 'high risk' , other places use 3 days worth of co-amoxiclav 1 day before , day of catheter removal and one day after ( especially if the patient is then likely to be doing intermittant catheterisation)I change catheters frequently and we never give antibiotics.
that said a trial without ( depending on likelihood of passing the trial ) removes sources of potential infection rather than increasing them.
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