LED lights - confused.com

[audi321]

This is bordering on a stupid question I think, but is there a difference between an led light and a normal light??

I'm fully aware that the bulbs are different, but is the actual light fitment the same? i.e. my halogen lights in the kitchen, could I simply put led bulbs in them and they'd be the same as a new led light? Same with the 60W bulb in the living room?

Thanks in advance

[Magic919]

Read this first - http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...

[DanGPR]

Depending on the light fitting, yes.

The lounge one will be a BC (bayonet cap) lamp if it's a standard ceiling rose.

The downlights will most likely be MR11 (12v) or GU10 (230v) lamps.

If you are wishing to dim either of the lights, you will need to ensure that you buy dimmable lamps, and ensure the transformer (if 12v) for the downlights is compatible with dimmers too. There is also the choice of cool white (more blue) or warm white(more orange).

I would recommend buying the lamps from an online shop, or electrical wholesaler. a quick google of "GU10 LED" should throw up some shops.

[audi321]

DanGPR said:

Depending on the light fitting, yes.

The lounge one will be a BC (bayonet cap) lamp if it's a standard ceiling rose.

The downlights will most likely be MR11 (12v) or GU10 (230v) lamps.

If you are wishing to dim either of the lights, you will need to ensure that you buy dimmable lamps, and ensure the transformer (if 12v) for the downlights is compatible with dimmers too. There is also the choice of cool white (more blue) or warm white(more orange).

I would recommend buying the lamps from an online shop, or electrical wholesaler. a quick google of "GU10 LED" should throw up some shops.

Cheers, I've done some research just now and my halogen ones in the kitchen are 240v GU10s. So would a simple GU10 LED lamp (i.e. these) work? Would I see much difference or is it just an energy saving thing?

[nokio]

audi321 said:

Cheers, I've done some research just now and my halogen ones in the kitchen are 240v GU10s. So would a simple GU10 LED lamp (i.e. these) work? Would I see much difference or is it just an energy saving thing?

Those won't give anywhere near a decent enough light output, go for the philips LED's I have them fitted to my house and they are just as good as the halogens (despite what some people will tell you)

Have a look at http://www.netlamps.co.uk/cat/PHILIPS.html

[E36GUY]

nokio said:

Those won't give anywhere near a decent enough light output, go for the philips LED's I have them fitted to my house and they are just as good as the halogens (despite what some people will tell you) Have a look at http://www.netlamps.co.uk/cat/PHILIPS.html

Depends what Halogen you refer to. Philips are the best I have seen BUT.......

The Philips items may rival 30W halogen but most given people want to replace 50W like for like, the Philips lamp is not up to it:

A 50W mains voltage GU10 Halogen usually has an output of at least 500 Lumens
A 50W low volatege MR16 Halogen usually has an output of at least 700 Lumens.

Most powerful Philips Master LED, the 7W - 310 Lumens. Well that's only 60% of the mains halogen and less than half a low voltage.

These are not simply the claims of a rival LED manufacturer (i.e. me), but can be seen directly on the Philips website and product brochure. See pages 3 & 4 for the Lumen output figures

You can get better performing lamps for less money elsewhere but to get the true halogen rivalling performance, it's go to be the complete fitting, not a retrofit bulb. For example, we get 420 Lumens from just 5 Watts and over 800 from 10W

and

audi321 said:

So would a simple GU10 LED lamp (i.e. these) work?

Absolutely not. Avoid like the plague.

Edited by E36GUY on Monday 3rd October 11:08

[anonymous-user]

Am I missing something or has the OP's question got nothing to do with confused.com (mentioned in the thread title)?

[PJ S]

Using the expression to convey uncertainty about light bulbs.

[Bill]

nokio said:

Those won't give anywhere near a decent enough light output, go for the philips LED's I have them fitted to my house and they are just as good as the halogens (despite what some people will tell you)

Have a look at http://www.netlamps.co.uk/cat/PHILIPS.html

Some people don't see it, I guess. My wife is the same, but I hate the colour of LEDs (even "warm white") and get irritated by the delay. The same goes for other low energy bulbs too.

[jason s4]

LED's are crap at the moment.

The angle of light, and spread is awful.

I have just had to fit 4 extra in a kitchen after the client insisted he knew better and the amount he wanted would be fine.

[E36GUY]

jason s4 said:

LED's are crap at the moment.
The angle of light, and spread is awful.
I have just had to fit 4 extra in a kitchen after the client insisted he knew better and the amount he wanted would be fine.

I would dispute that. Your experience may have been a bad one but really good stuff exists. Problem is, there is more crap than good

[jason s4]

E36GUY said:

I would dispute that. Your experience may have been a bad one but really good stuff exists.

At a price, which most of the time, the client is not willing to pay for.

Even the new Halers fittings.

Excellent light output, but dreadful coverage.

[audi321]

Thanks guys, so just to give me a simple recommendation then, what replacement retrofit to replace my 50W halogen light should I look at?

Warm light and reasonably priced GU10 fitment? Needs to be same size to fit in the little fiddly bendy clip to hold it in place!

I take it I need about 500 lumens then.....but reasonable priced is the key thing!

[E36GUY]

audi321 said:

Thanks guys, so just to give me a simple recommendation then, what replacement retrofit to replace my 50W halogen light should I look at?

Warm light and reasonably priced GU10 fitment? Needs to be same size to fit in the little fiddly bendy clip to hold it in place!

I take it I need about 500 lumens then.....but reasonable priced is the key thing!

They don't exist I'm afraid. Please read my post in THIS THREAD about 'bulb' replacements, heat management and complete replacement fittings.

Edited by E36GUY on Wednesday 5th October 11:43

[CDP]

What I would like is a LED replacement for the outdoor PIR halogen. I've dropped it from the original (and silly) 500W to 100W which is still overkill for walking to the backdoor. It's just a waste of electricity.

Needs to be mains powered and reasonably well made, ideally about 10-20W.

Any suggestions please?

[E36GUY]

jason s4 said:

Even the new Halers fittings.
Excellent light output, but dreadful coverage.

They are not brilliant TBH. It's a very cheaply made fitting and Warm White is probably only about 300 lumens (but they claim 400 in their literature but in reality that is at cool white which will have a higher Lumen count). They use cluster technology (i.e. several LEDs together) which means it's old school tech and cheap. The LEDs sourced from all sorts of places so the consistency of colour is poor. When you see a room full of many of them you can usually see a variation in colour which is not ideal.

jason s4 said:

At a price, which most of the time, the client is not willing to pay for.

Ultimately, building regs will be dictating the use of LED more and more. At the moment, to pass part L you need 45 lumens per watt. A 50W Halogen is only 10! The Philips Master LED 7W 'bulb replacement - at just 310 lumens - doesn't quite manage that so won't pass. Mine, the 5W ZEP1 is 420 lumens which is a massive 84 lumens per watt so almost double the minimum regs requirement.

I have found it's much more about how you sell the long term benefit to the client. You have to paint the financial picture. If they are a developer then they want it as cheap as possible so maybe not but, If they are paying the bills themselves later then it makes sense. If your client is looking for 3 lights in a bathroom, the cost doesn't and won't add up but if they are replacing 30 lamps in a house or better, 400 in a hotel it does:

House: 30 lamp ROI using the 5W ECOLED ZEP1 - vs - 50W Halogen GU10 based on the industry median average daily use of 8 hours/day.

Halogen:

30 x 50W = 1500W = 1.5KW
1.5KW x 8 Hours = 12KWh
12 x £0.12p per KWh = £1.44 per day x 365 = £525.60 per year.

LED:

30 x 5W = 150W = 0.15KW
0.15KW x 8 Hours = 1.2KWh
1.2 x £0.12p per KWh = £0.144p per day x 365 = £52.56 per year.

A saving of £473.04 per annum so the break even point on the investment in this case would be just under 28 months which is a very quick payback if you compare that to other items such as PV cells.

Hotel:

Halogen:

400 x 50W = 20000W = 20KW
20KW x 24 Hours = 480KWh
480 x £0.12p per KWh = £57.60 per day x 365 = £21,024.00 per year. (ouch)

LED:

400 x 5W = 2000W = 2KW
2KW x 24 Hours = 48KWh
48 x £0.12p per KWh = £5.76 per day x 365 = £2,102.40 per year.

A saving therefore of £18,921.60 per year. In this case, the BEP is less than a year and the client will actually be in profit year one to the tune of about £3700. In year two they are up to the tune of the £18,921.60.

This money goes straight back into a individual's pocket or company's bottom line and they do listen to this!

[E36GUY]

CDP said:

What I would like is a LED replacement for the outdoor PIR halogen. I've dropped it from the original (and silly) 500W to 100W which is still overkill for walking to the backdoor. It's just a waste of electricity.

Needs to be mains powered and reasonably well made, ideally about 10-20W.

Any suggestions please?

Yes: We have this little beauty at just 10W but now comes in a black body. You will have to fit a £10 PIR from maplins in line however but that is very easy!

[CDP]

E36GUY said:

CDP said:

What I would like is a LED replacement for the outdoor PIR halogen. I've dropped it from the original (and silly) 500W to 100W which is still overkill for walking to the backdoor. It's just a waste of electricity.

Needs to be mains powered and reasonably well made, ideally about 10-20W.

Any suggestions please?

Yes: We have this little beauty at just 10W but now comes in a black body. You will have to fit a £10 PIR from maplins in line however but that is very easy!

Thanks, it's quite expensive but if it runs an hour a day over winter (which with the cat passing underneath is feasible) I reckon the payback would be a couple of years.

[E36GUY]

CDP said:

Thanks, it's quite expensive but if it runs an hour a day over winter (which with the cat passing underneath is feasible) I reckon the payback would be a couple of years.

PHers can ignore the web prices. Speshul price for them

[jason s4]

E36GUY said:

jason s4 said:

Even the new Halers fittings.
Excellent light output, but dreadful coverage.

They are not brilliant TBH. It's a very cheaply made fitting and Warm White is probably only about 300 lumens (but they claim 400 in their literature but in reality that is at cool white which will have a higher Lumen count). They use cluster technology (i.e. several LEDs together) which means it's old school tech and cheap. The LEDs sourced from all sorts of places so the consistency of colour is poor. When you see a room full of many of them you can usually see a variation in colour which is not ideal.

jason s4 said:

At a price, which most of the time, the client is not willing to pay for.

Ultimately, building regs will be dictating the use of LED more and more. At the moment, to pass part L you need 45 lumens per watt. A 50W Halogen is only 10! The Philips Master LED 7W 'bulb replacement - at just 310 lumens - doesn't quite manage that so won't pass. Mine, the 5W ZEP1 is 420 lumens which is a massive 84 lumens per watt so almost double the minimum regs requirement.

I have found it's much more about how you sell the long term benefit to the client. You have to paint the financial picture. If they are a developer then they want it as cheap as possible so maybe not but, If they are paying the bills themselves later then it makes sense. If your client is looking for 3 lights in a bathroom, the cost doesn't and won't add up but if they are replacing 30 lamps in a house or better, 400 in a hotel it does:

House: 30 lamp ROI using the 5W ECOLED ZEP1 - vs - 50W Halogen GU10 based on the industry median average daily use of 8 hours/day.

Halogen:

30 x 50W = 1500W = 1.5KW
1.5KW x 8 Hours = 12KWh
12 x £0.12p per KWh = £1.44 per day x 365 = £525.60 per year.

LED:

30 x 5W = 150W = 0.15KW
0.15KW x 8 Hours = 1.2KWh
1.2 x £0.12p per KWh = £0.144p per day x 365 = £52.56 per year.

A saving of £473.04 per annum so the break even point on the investment in this case would be just under 28 months which is a very quick payback if you compare that to other items such as PV cells.

Hotel:

Halogen:

400 x 50W = 20000W = 20KW
20KW x 24 Hours = 480KWh
480 x £0.12p per KWh = £57.60 per day x 365 = £21,024.00 per year. (ouch)

LED:

400 x 5W = 2000W = 2KW
2KW x 24 Hours = 48KWh
48 x £0.12p per KWh = £5.76 per day x 365 = £2,102.40 per year.

A saving therefore of £18,921.60 per year. In this case, the BEP is less than a year and the client will actually be in profit year one to the tune of about £3700. In year two they are up to the tune of the £18,921.60.

This money goes straight back into a individual's pocket or company's bottom line and they do listen to this!

Superb breakdown there, thanks.

Parl L only really has a major effect on new build properties and a lot of the time, it can be achieved with some CFL's.

Refurbs on the other hand are not. The only requirement with those is that low energy lamps are used in a percentage of the rooms, even with standard pendants.

I really wouldnt want a room full of LED's though.