may and the HRA - treatment of a 15-year-old-boy
Discussion
May seems to want to bin the HRA. The Americans are not signatories to the Human Rights Act so by ignoring habeas corpus they only infringe their own law and not that of the HRC.
This story, although very one-sided, does seem to suggest that when governments are their own bosses as to what is and is not allowed then humane treatement goes out of the window.
In any civilised country a confession obtained from a 15-year-old in the manner this one was would be kicked into touch immediately and the police officers either disciplined or sacked.
I think there must be some form of international check on the conduct of any country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/05/guanta...
Adults cave in under milder questioning techniques. His confession is of no value.
This story, although very one-sided, does seem to suggest that when governments are their own bosses as to what is and is not allowed then humane treatement goes out of the window.
In any civilised country a confession obtained from a 15-year-old in the manner this one was would be kicked into touch immediately and the police officers either disciplined or sacked.
I think there must be some form of international check on the conduct of any country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/05/guanta...
Adults cave in under milder questioning techniques. His confession is of no value.
I would class myself as Conservative but I find it hard to agree with May on this issue. It's easy to blame society's ills on the HRA. I agree that there should be international norms to which we are held, partly so we can legitimately hold others to account.
I do, however, think we have a problem with judges interpreting conflict between the HRA and existing legislation. Derek you know more on this than I do, but it seems there is a default position to take the HRA to the extreme at the expense of some common sense which can produce the frustrations that many Tories/Daily Mail/etc feel now.
The case above illustrates the value of the HRA. If you sit down and read it, most of it is perfectly reasonable and not something you could disagree with.
I do, however, think we have a problem with judges interpreting conflict between the HRA and existing legislation. Derek you know more on this than I do, but it seems there is a default position to take the HRA to the extreme at the expense of some common sense which can produce the frustrations that many Tories/Daily Mail/etc feel now.
The case above illustrates the value of the HRA. If you sit down and read it, most of it is perfectly reasonable and not something you could disagree with.
Guam said:
This caes should bring shame to anyone with a sense of honour and belief in fair play.
Americans should be ashamed that THIS was done in their name.
Notwithstanding other considerations he was a kid ffs.
When I first learned about this it boiled my urine.
It still does TBH.
Whatever they thought he did he is rapidly approaching half his life in lock up?
That can NOT be viewed as reasonable in a civilised society?
Cheers
Agreed. In so many ways I love America as a country, but sometimes I have no surprise that many resent them. Part of the problem, I think, is their media. When over there it's far more difficult to find out what is actually going on in the world from print/TV. We (I) moan about our media, politics and the BBC but I can't help feel here we are more likely to question 'our' country and behaviour. We are naturally cynical about politics, and our place in the world in a way the US isn't. Americans should be ashamed that THIS was done in their name.
Notwithstanding other considerations he was a kid ffs.
When I first learned about this it boiled my urine.
It still does TBH.
Whatever they thought he did he is rapidly approaching half his life in lock up?
That can NOT be viewed as reasonable in a civilised society?
Cheers
HATS ARE BORING said:
I would class myself as Conservative but I find it hard to agree with May on this issue. It's easy to blame society's ills on the HRA. I agree that there should be international norms to which we are held, partly so we can legitimately hold others to account.
I do, however, think we have a problem with judges interpreting conflict between the HRA and existing legislation. Derek you know more on this than I do, but it seems there is a default position to take the HRA to the extreme at the expense of some common sense which can produce the frustrations that many Tories/Daily Mail/etc feel now.
The case above illustrates the value of the HRA. If you sit down and read it, most of it is perfectly reasonable and not something you could disagree with.
I agree about some of the excesses of the HRA. The judges seem to want to expand their remit beyond good sense. Some might suggest empire building. Yet when I saw this I began to wonder if it is a cost worth paying. That said, I don't think it is but even so this is horrendous.I do, however, think we have a problem with judges interpreting conflict between the HRA and existing legislation. Derek you know more on this than I do, but it seems there is a default position to take the HRA to the extreme at the expense of some common sense which can produce the frustrations that many Tories/Daily Mail/etc feel now.
The case above illustrates the value of the HRA. If you sit down and read it, most of it is perfectly reasonable and not something you could disagree with.
I've got American friends and correspond regularly with them. It's not as if I'm anti-American. But this treatment of a 15-year-old, plus the disregard of habeas corpus is sutnning. We as a country were complicit in illegal actions with regards to the transport of these people. We cannot 'cast the first stone'.
As you say, the vast mjority of the HRA is sensible and unarguable. It's the judges who have extended it beyond reasonable. But if this is what happens when you do not bother with the HRA you've got to say that we need something like it.
When I was a probationer PC I was taught questioning techniques which would now be illegal. Even now they seem quite mild but I see why they have been banned. Even so, the bloke who taught me, ex Army intelligence, said that the most important thing to watch out for was a suspect telling you what he thought you wanted to hear. He said something along the lines of: most do that after a while. He was talking about adults, hardened criminals (not that I got my hands on many of them) and this is a 15-year-old.
Guam said:
Actually we pretty much did, I think you are tarring us all with the "Soviet brush".
I am unaware of any German kid that was detained on anything like this basis unless you know differrent?
We executed an 18 year old for murder in 1941 - not sure how old he was when captured. I simply cannot imagine that we would have let any enemy combatant "go" until they were deep in the process, and only then to a separate unit, rather than free.I am unaware of any German kid that was detained on anything like this basis unless you know differrent?
JagLover said:
He wasn't caught flower arranging was he.
You might as well say the allies in WW2 should have immediatedly released any Hitler youth caught fighting against them rather than detaining them for the duration of hostilities.
Neither the Americans or us have any idea of what he was doing. A confession in these circumstances is worthless not only legally but practically. Further, the UN states quite clearly that children should be treated differently to adults and more as victims.You might as well say the allies in WW2 should have immediatedly released any Hitler youth caught fighting against them rather than detaining them for the duration of hostilities.
Also, should a state be able to lock a child away regardless of his rights in his own country or that of America? Let alone his international rights.
We were obliged to treat prisoners of war with a certain standard of care. There were international observers as well. My father was friendly with a German POW (because he competed in trials on a Triumph Speed Twin) who'd married, oddly enough, an Austrian in Wales just after the war. I remember him saying he was treated well and grew to like the 'English'. I don't think this now adult is likely to suffer the same emotion towards Americans.
Guam said:
I am unaware of any German kid that was detained on anything like this basis unless you know differrent?
This would seem to disagree with youhttp://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&am...
Also I know of one Allied commander who executed a bunch of Hitler youth he found killing prisoners at a concentration camp.
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