Massa - is the strain of being No2 Starting to tell?

[radlet6]

I think after his comments this weekend Massa has proved himself to be a bit of a Richard. However, it must be galling to out qualify your team mate and then have to let him past every single time.

Now, when Nando was potentially going for personal gold there was a point to this, but really since last weekend all the Mincing Donkey can do is hope for the best position possible in the Constructors' race; and in that respect it doesn't matter which Ferrari finishes ahead of the other. So, should team orders still exist at Ferrari? or, all things being equal, could Nando's fragile ego not cope with being beaten by Massa?

Perhaps Massa is venting his frustration inappropriately, and really should be giving them hell back at Marranello. I say: let them race.

[AndrewW-G]

Of the number two drivers at Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull, it's only Webber who isn’t coming across on TV and in the press as a bit of an arse

[radlet6]

Admitedly JB is showing Lewis the way round, but that doesn't make a no.2 driver. Macca don't give priority to one driver over the other, which makes JB's achievement all the more real.

[PeXy]

radlet6 said:

I think after his comments this weekend Massa has proved himself to be a bit of a Richard. However, it must be galling to out qualify your team mate and then have to let him past every single time.

Now, when Nando was potentially going for personal gold there was a point to this, but really since last weekend all the Mincing Donkey can do is hope for the best position possible in the Constructors' race; and in that respect it doesn't matter which Ferrari finishes ahead of the other. So, should team orders still exist at Ferrari? or, all things being equal, could Nando's fragile ego not cope with being beaten by Massa?

Perhaps Massa is venting his frustration inappropriately, and really should be giving them hell back at Marranello. I say: let them race.

After watching Fred finish just over a second behind Button, do you think Massa would have done the same? He had to let him through. Team orders exist legally in F1 not just at ferrari, we have seen redbull use them this year and i expect some of the other teams.

[Fire99]

Strain of being a definite no2 and never entirely recovering from his 'accident'.

In a word . Yes!

[ajprice]

I think the best thing for him to stay in F1 is to 'do a Kovalainen' and move to lead a lower team. Swap him with Perez or Kobi.

[DrTre]

AndrewW-G said:

Of the number two drivers at Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull, it's only Webber who isn’t coming across on TV and in the press as a bit of an arse

Grammatically it's correct and yet there's not a single piece of this post that makes the slightest bit of sense. It's brilliantly, genuinely absurd.

[Fire99]

DrTre said:

AndrewW-G said:

Of the number two drivers at Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull, it's only Webber who isn’t coming across on TV and in the press as a bit of an arse

Grammatically it's correct and yet there's not a single piece of this post that makes the slightest bit of sense. It's brilliantly, genuinely absurd.

You'll work it out in the end

[mollytherocker]

Fire99 said:

DrTre said:

AndrewW-G said:

Of the number two drivers at Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull, it's only Webber who isn’t coming across on TV and in the press as a bit of an arse

Grammatically it's correct and yet there's not a single piece of this post that makes the slightest bit of sense. It's brilliantly, genuinely absurd.

You'll work it out in the end

I get it!

MTR

[DrTre]

Fire99 said:

DrTre said:

AndrewW-G said:

Of the number two drivers at Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull, it's only Webber who isn’t coming across on TV and in the press as a bit of an arse

Grammatically it's correct and yet there's not a single piece of this post that makes the slightest bit of sense. It's brilliantly, genuinely absurd.

You'll work it out in the end

I was very, very drunk and being all serious ..now I've sobered up, the penny has dropped like Lisa riley in a lift shaft...I did think it was a weird post from awg...sorry fella.

[delays]

Martin Brundle said something in the commentary about Ferrari "destroying Massa's soul" when he let Alonso through - clearly in reference to the obvious No 1/ No 2 status.

Ferrari will always be Fernando's patch until he leaves.

[radlet6]

There is the other thing to consider, and that is Massa would have been expecting a dramatic rise in status when Raikainen left - and to some degree he did assert himself in the early Nando days.

However, the Teflon Prince soon put a stop to all that, mainly behind the scenes off the track. This is how he fell out with Macca - they wouldn't wear it.

[AndrewW-G]

radlet6 said:

There is the other thing to consider, and that is Massa would have been expecting a dramatic rise in status when Raikainen left - and to some degree he did assert himself in the early Nando days.

However, the Teflon Prince soon put a stop to all that, mainly behind the scenes off the track. This is how he fell out with Macca - they wouldn't wear it.

Your version of events is dramatically different from the ones that have emanated from Gestione Sportiva. Could you please quote your source for this insider information?

[ajprice]

Ferrari has been a 1 driver team with A.N.Other in the second car since Schumacher first got signed there, 16 years ago. Before then it was Prost/Senna, Prost/Mansell, Berger/Alesi etc. maybe apart from Prost/Mansell, they were equal drivers in the team.

Since then it's been a No. 1 driver team, Schumacher/Irvine, Schumacher/Barrichello, Schumacher/Massa, and maybe Raikonnen/Massa in the time between Schu and Alonso (were they officially equal or was Raikonnen No. 1?) 16 years is a long time and having 1 main driver is probably that hard set in the team now that its there to stay, they needed Alonso to replace Schumacher as No.1. I'm not even sure if the team could run with 2 'equal' drivers, but would any driver who wants to win (which should be all of them) be happy to be at Ferrari to replace Massa and be Alonso's bh?

[radlet6]

AndrewW-G said:

radlet6 said:

There is the other thing to consider, and that is Massa would have been expecting a dramatic rise in status when Raikainen left - and to some degree he did assert himself in the early Nando days.

However, the Teflon Prince soon put a stop to all that, mainly behind the scenes off the track. This is how he fell out with Macca - they wouldn't wear it.

Your version of events is dramatically different from the ones that have emanated from Gestione Sportiva. Could you please quote your source for this insider information?

Of course my version of events is different, because I take my info from a number of sources, not just the Mincing Donkey PR mag, (including what happens on the track) and draw conclusions from that. It is clear to all that mid season last year Ferrari put all it's eggs in the Nando basket (or have you forgotten already the "Fernando is quicker than you" incident? And from that time nothing has changed.

Do you honestly think that Alonso had nothing to do with that shift in strategy, that it was all Ferrari inspired?

[AndrewW-G]

radlet6 said:

Do you honestly think that Alonso had nothing to do with that shift in strategy, that it was all Ferrari inspired?

There has been no shift in strategy, which of course was my point . . . . . When Fernando joined Ferrari, had Felipe been consistently quicker than Fernando, he would have assumed the role of the number 1 driver . . . . as it is, Fernando came in as a team leading, multiple WDC who IS quicker and more capable of scoring points with a car that isn’t the equal of the RB or McL, hence his status as number 1.

No matter what a teams PR machine will state in public, they will always place their support with the driver most capable of generating results and if that means their other driver needs to play a supporting role, then so be it.

[Woody]

AndrewW-G said:

There has been no shift in strategy, which of course was my point . . . . . When Fernando joined Ferrari, had Felipe been consistently quicker than Fernando, he would have assumed the role of the number 1 driver . . . . as it is, Fernando came in as a team leading, multiple WDC who IS quicker and more capable of scoring points with a car that isn’t the equal of the RB or McL, hence his status as number 1.

No matter what a teams PR machine will state in public, they will always place their support with the driver most capable of generating results and if that means their other driver needs to play a supporting role, then so be it.

Really??? isn't that what happened at Mclaren with Hamilton? We all know how that ended - toys/pram/Fernando.
Alonso is the defacto No. 1 at Ferrari and always will be.

[radlet6]

No shift in strategy, Really?

In 2010 Alonos won in Bahrain with Massa 6 seconds behind. Massa was 3rd in Oz and Alonso 4th, only 2 seconds behind (crucially no team orders despite Massa holding him up). In Malaysia Massa 7th Alonso 13th. China: Alonso 4th Massa 9th. Canada: Alonso 3rd, Massa 15th. Spain Alonso 3rd, Massa 6th. Monnaco Massa 4th alonso 6th. Turkey: Massa 7th, Alonso 8th (no team orders). In qualifying Massa had also matched Alonso up until this point.

Then Alonso makes his famous statement re "If Ferarri want to win the world title then they will have to put more emphasis on one driver". We then get the more infamous European GP where we see the blatant issuing of team orders.

As I said, in the early days Massa did assert himself as is shown by Quali and race results. Since the European GP of 2010 he has been forced to trail Alonso in both. Sorry but I see not only a definite shift, but a sea change in the approach of Ferrari since the European GP of 2010.

[DrTre]

Massa was always no 2, that's always been the strategy since alonso signed his contract.

[radlet6]

Don't think Massa saw it that way, or was ever led to believe that by Ferrari.