Why do some car makers do this????
Discussion
Sell the fastest/most powerful/most sporty model only with an automatic? 
I use the word sporty figuratively here, as I was looking at the Range Rover Evoque build your car last night. And it appears there are around 11 variants with the diesel engine, half of these can be had with a 6 speed manual.
There is only one petrol option, the most powerful engine option and according to the blurb the most sporty and dynamic. Yet it's only available with a friggin auto???
I've notice LR also do this with the FL2, the 6 cylinder petrol is again only available with an auto. No wonder they sell so few, as the auto blunts the performance, increases fuel consumption and makes it a less of an enjoyable drive.
Others I've seen do this:
-Jaguar S-Type, all powerful engines are auto's
-Dodge, the most powerful Avenger with the 2.4 petrol was auto only which I think made it slower than the manual 2.0 petrol and worse on fuel
-Jeep the 3.8 V6 Wrangler, auto only for UK
Why oh why oh why?
I use the word sporty figuratively here, as I was looking at the Range Rover Evoque build your car last night. And it appears there are around 11 variants with the diesel engine, half of these can be had with a 6 speed manual.
There is only one petrol option, the most powerful engine option and according to the blurb the most sporty and dynamic. Yet it's only available with a friggin auto???
I've notice LR also do this with the FL2, the 6 cylinder petrol is again only available with an auto. No wonder they sell so few, as the auto blunts the performance, increases fuel consumption and makes it a less of an enjoyable drive.
Others I've seen do this:
-Jaguar S-Type, all powerful engines are auto's
-Dodge, the most powerful Avenger with the 2.4 petrol was auto only which I think made it slower than the manual 2.0 petrol and worse on fuel
-Jeep the 3.8 V6 Wrangler, auto only for UK
Why oh why oh why?
Guess 1.
Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
300bhp/ton said:
heebeegeetee said:
'Cos a big manual is pretty pointless and won't sell?
I take it that's based on your vast experience of knowing what every person in the World wants then?I guess it's just down to percentages. Unless ENOUGH people will buy a particular car there's no sense in spending the money engineering to build it.
I presume that not ENOUGH people want big engined manual cars in general.
M
marcosgt said:
Because mostly Americans buy these models and 90% of them will only buy autos?
American tend to buy very few RHD UK models though.Also, in many of the cases, in the US you can buy said vehicle with a manual. It's just the UK market, or UK car makers that seem most frequent on doing this.
marcosgt said:
I guess it's just down to percentages. Unless ENOUGH people will buy a particular car there's no sense in spending the money engineering to build it.
I presume that not ENOUGH people want big engined manual cars in general.
M
I can't answer, this, and I suspect without actual sales numbers nobody can.I presume that not ENOUGH people want big engined manual cars in general.
M
But logically, why would you want a car slower and with worse mpg when it's meant to be the most sporty model?
e.g. with the Evoque, the claimed mpg for the diesel auto is 6.1mpg less than the same engine with a manual. 43.5 compared to 49.6
The petrol auto is rated at 32.5mpg. With a manual one could assume that it's mpg would likely be around 38mpg, so almost as good as the auto diesel, but a heck of a lot faster.
I dunno, it just seems at odds, if you're prepared to spend to get the more powerful engine, surely you'd actually want it with the best performance?
Snowboy said:
Guess 1.
Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
Just Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
to all of it 300bhp/ton said:
I take it that's based on your vast experience of knowing what every person in the World wants then?
Well, the manufacturers have had a century and a quarter to compile research, and it seems they agree.I for one cannot see the point in having a luxo-barge (however 'sporty') in which you have to change gear for yourself.
300bhp/ton said:
can't answer, this, and I suspect without actual sales numbers nobody can.
But logically, why would you want a car slower and with worse mpg when it's meant to be the most sporty model?
e.g. with the Evoque, the claimed mpg for the diesel auto is 6.1mpg less than the same engine with a manual. 43.5 compared to 49.6
The petrol auto is rated at 32.5mpg. With a manual one could assume that it's mpg would likely be around 38mpg, so almost as good as the auto diesel, but a heck of a lot faster.
I dunno, it just seems at odds, if you're prepared to spend to get the more powerful engine, surely you'd actually want it with the best performance?
Because it takes a lot of work to get both a manual and an automatic version running. I should know, I'm working on them right now for a different company. It's not just changing over your slushbox for a 'PH' manual.But logically, why would you want a car slower and with worse mpg when it's meant to be the most sporty model?
e.g. with the Evoque, the claimed mpg for the diesel auto is 6.1mpg less than the same engine with a manual. 43.5 compared to 49.6
The petrol auto is rated at 32.5mpg. With a manual one could assume that it's mpg would likely be around 38mpg, so almost as good as the auto diesel, but a heck of a lot faster.
I dunno, it just seems at odds, if you're prepared to spend to get the more powerful engine, surely you'd actually want it with the best performance?
300bhp/ton said:
Snowboy said:
Guess 1.
Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
Just Gear ratios.
The gears are so close it would be a poor drive to have to change gear so often.
Guess 2.
Clutch
The engine is so powerful that a manual clutch could get damaged very quickly if the driver rides it or dumps it too heavily. It may make for unfavourable reviews if clutches keep breaking – even if it is the drivers fault.
A warranty on the clutch may make for tricky conversations and lots of goodwill payouts even though it's a 'consumable' part. Hard to prove it's the driver fault.
Guess 3.
Wrong gear engine over rev
A manual would allow the driver to dump the car into the wrong gear.
This could just break everything.
Guess 4.
MPG.
A manual clutch with lots of power could let the driver sit in the wrong gear at the wrong revs and reduce the MPG too much. More unfavourable reviews.
Guess 5.
The gearbox is nowhere near the driver seat, so it's not possible to put a linkage there.
to all of it I don't like it either but the manufacturers must've decided that most of the car's target market won't mind the lack of a manual. Then theres the possible technical factors mentioned above- yes, an Auto can be more economical, and some people don't like endlessly picking between ratios in their luxury motor.
Guess 7.
In the past cars were made as manuals, the boffins would then pop out the manual box and put some electrickery in there to change gear for you at the right time.
Some cars now are designed as auto, and the designers just don't bother working out how to put a manual box in because it's more effort than it's worth.
Do these cars you mention have tipstronic and flappy paddles?
In the past cars were made as manuals, the boffins would then pop out the manual box and put some electrickery in there to change gear for you at the right time.
Some cars now are designed as auto, and the designers just don't bother working out how to put a manual box in because it's more effort than it's worth.
Do these cars you mention have tipstronic and flappy paddles?
heebeegeetee said:
Well, the manufacturers have had a century and a quarter to compile research, and it seems they agree.
I for one cannot see the point in having a luxo-barge (however 'sporty') in which you have to change gear for yourself.
Eh?I for one cannot see the point in having a luxo-barge (however 'sporty') in which you have to change gear for yourself.
So a potential customer 125 years ago is highly relevant to today?
Not all the vehicles I cited were luxibarges, and neither are all the vehicles sold like this.
I also think you are missing the point, as the self same vehicles are offered with manuals in lesser spec and lesser power options. So it evidently isn't anything specific about the vehicle.
GroundEffect said:
Because it takes a lot of work to get both a manual and an automatic version running. I should know, I'm working on them right now for a different company. It's not just changing over your slushbox for a 'PH' manual.
So why is it anymore difficult with the lesser models in the range?Classic Grad 98 said:
How's that? It all makes sense to me!
I don't like it either but the manufacturers must've decided that most of the car's target market won't mind the lack of a manual. Then theres the possible technical factors mentioned above- yes, an Auto can be more economical, and some people don't like endlessly picking between ratios in their luxury motor.
Is a Freelander 2 really a luxury motor?I don't like it either but the manufacturers must've decided that most of the car's target market won't mind the lack of a manual. Then theres the possible technical factors mentioned above- yes, an Auto can be more economical, and some people don't like endlessly picking between ratios in their luxury motor.
300bhp/ton said:
GroundEffect said:
Because it takes a lot of work to get both a manual and an automatic version running. I should know, I'm working on them right now for a different company. It's not just changing over your slushbox for a 'PH' manual.
So why is it anymore difficult with the lesser models in the range?300bhp/ton said:
So why is it anymore difficult with the lesser models in the range?
Would the engine in the sports versions be physically larger?Would the gearbox be larger with more gears and perhaps just not fit?
Would it put more strain on the manual gearbox or require different ratios?
Would the ratios be different to a 'normal' car.
For example, in a 7 speed auto sporty job, perhaps gears 1,2,3,4 are just for driving off smoothly, 5 is a used for driving at 30-40, 6 for 50-75 and 7 for anything more.
Perhaps a manual 7 gear box would just have too many drivers sitting in the wrong gear for the speed causing unnecessary engine and drivetrain wear?
So, they just don't want to let the driver choose the gear becuase it's likely the driver will get it wrong.
Would the power of the car-vs-gearbox actually require various dampers and torque conversion sort of stuff that a manual clutch just couldn't replicate – lots of potential for damage.
I know, for example, some BMWs use a clutch delay valve to stop drivers dumping the clutch to harshly on some bigger engines.
300bhp/ton said:
Classic Grad 98 said:
How's that? It all makes sense to me!
I don't like it either but the manufacturers must've decided that most of the car's target market won't mind the lack of a manual. Then theres the possible technical factors mentioned above- yes, an Auto can be more economical, and some people don't like endlessly picking between ratios in their luxury motor.
Is a Freelander 2 really a luxury motor?I don't like it either but the manufacturers must've decided that most of the car's target market won't mind the lack of a manual. Then theres the possible technical factors mentioned above- yes, an Auto can be more economical, and some people don't like endlessly picking between ratios in their luxury motor.
GroundEffect said:
Because it takes a lot of work to get both a manual and an automatic version running. I should know, I'm working on them right now for a different company. It's not just changing over your slushbox for a 'PH' manual.
^^^ This.Further aimless conjecture from me:
No-one has yet mentioned (directly) things such as torque ratings for the gearbox - plenty of instances through recent history when autos or manuals have/haven't been available on more powerful models because the manufacturer hasn't got a gearbox strong enough for the job. SO, in your case, perhaps the manual gearbox is capable of handling the loads on all but the most powerful model, hence why it's not offered.
I'd also consider that perhaps the target market is people who enjoy performance on a 'press-pedal-and-wahey' approach, rather than wanting to actively change gear - look how many RR Sports are sold, I suspect many people's notion of sporty differs from the typical PHer. I know at least one person who likes a quick car - but his entire fleet are automatic diesels.
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