Trader acting as a private seller - any come back?
Discussion
After some advice please. My sister bought a second hand car for £500 in a "private" sale off autotrader a few months ago. 2 days later the cambelt went and she had a £400 bill to fix it.
I actually went to view the car with my sister, the seller was selling on behalf of his aunt who was apparently very ill. The car carried a full service history and although there was no specific mention of the cambelt having been changed, he said it had been done. He seemed very legit, nice bloke etc so a deal was done.
Now I know under a private sale there is no come back on something like this, however there were a couple of other cars on his drive at the time which I assumed were his. I checked on autotrader after the cambelt failed and I got suspicious, and it turned out one of them was for sale. Could be coincidence, but I have checked autotrader a few times since and have seen a further 3 cars for sale, clearly at that address as the driveway is quite recognisable.
It's clear to me he is a trader and not a private seller as he is depicting, and I imagine the whole story about the aunt was a lie.
So where does this leave my sister,
1) just write it off as lesson learned
2) contact him to request the repair costs back as he has obligations as trader, does he?
3) if he refuses, threatening him with a letter to HMRC and trading standards?
4) forget the hassle of trying to get money back but notify HMRC anyway as someone who might be of interest
What do you think?
I actually went to view the car with my sister, the seller was selling on behalf of his aunt who was apparently very ill. The car carried a full service history and although there was no specific mention of the cambelt having been changed, he said it had been done. He seemed very legit, nice bloke etc so a deal was done.
Now I know under a private sale there is no come back on something like this, however there were a couple of other cars on his drive at the time which I assumed were his. I checked on autotrader after the cambelt failed and I got suspicious, and it turned out one of them was for sale. Could be coincidence, but I have checked autotrader a few times since and have seen a further 3 cars for sale, clearly at that address as the driveway is quite recognisable.
It's clear to me he is a trader and not a private seller as he is depicting, and I imagine the whole story about the aunt was a lie.
So where does this leave my sister,
1) just write it off as lesson learned
2) contact him to request the repair costs back as he has obligations as trader, does he?
3) if he refuses, threatening him with a letter to HMRC and trading standards?
4) forget the hassle of trying to get money back but notify HMRC anyway as someone who might be of interest
What do you think?
Problem is it's a £500 car.
While the guy is a trader, and therefore bound by the Sale of Goods Act, his obligation is not to offer a six month warranty, etc.: it's a bit more complex than that.
The car has to be "fit for purpose" - it got her home, of "satisfactory quality" - it got her home, and "as described," which you haven't indicated that it wasn't. (If a £500 car is 12 years old, it might well have been on its second cambelt and that had perished).
Any defect that is identified within the first six months is deemed to be present at the time of sale, unless the trader can show otherwise. The problem is that well, the car got her home so it was fit for purpose; instead you'd have to argue that the car wasn't of satisfactory quality. The problem is that at £500 a sudden failure would not, in my opinion, preclude the car from being "of satisfactory quality," as the assessment of that satisfactoriness takes into account the price paid.
Edit: Probably on the basis of the above, Option 4.
While the guy is a trader, and therefore bound by the Sale of Goods Act, his obligation is not to offer a six month warranty, etc.: it's a bit more complex than that.
The car has to be "fit for purpose" - it got her home, of "satisfactory quality" - it got her home, and "as described," which you haven't indicated that it wasn't. (If a £500 car is 12 years old, it might well have been on its second cambelt and that had perished).
Any defect that is identified within the first six months is deemed to be present at the time of sale, unless the trader can show otherwise. The problem is that well, the car got her home so it was fit for purpose; instead you'd have to argue that the car wasn't of satisfactory quality. The problem is that at £500 a sudden failure would not, in my opinion, preclude the car from being "of satisfactory quality," as the assessment of that satisfactoriness takes into account the price paid.
Edit: Probably on the basis of the above, Option 4.
Edited by DavidHM on Tuesday 11th October 17:22
Edited by DavidHM on Tuesday 11th October 17:24
Not a legal answer by any means, but even if he is a small time trader it is a £500 car.
In your position I would simply phone him, tell him what has happened and you know he is a trader and just ask for a goodwill contribution.
Beyond that I wouldn't bother. It is a £500 car and I would imagine that's how a court would see it.
In your position I would simply phone him, tell him what has happened and you know he is a trader and just ask for a goodwill contribution.
Beyond that I wouldn't bother. It is a £500 car and I would imagine that's how a court would see it.
I would get on and issue proceeedings in the small claims court to recover what was paid for the car. It's all very simple and done online. Cost is very small.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
I can't see you getting very far on a £500 car and even then you've not approached him with problem before getting the work done so haven't allowed him an option of repairing or refunding.
£500 isn't far off weigh in value - you don't get much car for that and the court would see it that way. You might get something but can't see it worth the hassle.
£500 isn't far off weigh in value - you don't get much car for that and the court would see it that way. You might get something but can't see it worth the hassle.
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would get on and issue proceeedings in the small claims court to recover what was paid for the car. It's all very simple and done online. Cost is very small.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
We are talking about a £500 banger which lets face it you have to assume when you buy a £500 banger that it could expire the moment you drive round the corner in which case tough luck.https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
Spend more money or accept the risks and reality of buying a £500 banger
Your other issue that I can see is you say she bought the car & 2days later the cambelt snapped, why has it taken 'a few months' for you to post this thread and still not have contacted the 'alledged' trader directly, surely thats something that you would look to do straight away?
Also, never ever, take some ones word that something like a timing belt has been done, if there's no documented evidence of it being changed take it as read that its probably not been done.
As others have said, its a £500 car, I cant see you getting very far, but good luck with it all the same.
Also, never ever, take some ones word that something like a timing belt has been done, if there's no documented evidence of it being changed take it as read that its probably not been done.
As others have said, its a £500 car, I cant see you getting very far, but good luck with it all the same.
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would get on and issue proceeedings in the small claims court to recover what was paid for the car. It's all very simple and done online. Cost is very small.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
What makes the guy a swindler?https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
The car was £500? It certainly doesn't sound like a trade sale to me as the margins in a £500 car would be minimal.
It's hard luck and I feel for the OP but realistically he will get nowhere with this. Unless the seller offers him a gesture of goodwill there is no comeback with this. I'm being realistic of course, and anyone with half an idea of the law regarding used cars will back me up on this.
Personally if I bought a £500 car and the cambelt failed I'd put it down as one of those things. Everyone's different though. Personally I don't see anything wrong with selling a few cars in your spare time, some even see it as a hobby. But they're all just swindlers, eh?
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would get on and issue proceeedings in the small claims court to recover what was paid for the car. It's all very simple and done online. Cost is very small.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
You have absolutely no chance of this. None. Don't waste the £50 that it'd cost you.https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
Pull a few bits off the car, flog them on ebay and scrap the rest. You'll easily make over half back.
Thanks for the comments.
The car was always a risk at £500, we wouldn't have bought a more expensive car without documentation showing the cambelt was done, but at that value we took a chance and it back fired. I know that in a private sale there would me no come back at all.
At the time it failed we didn't think anything dodgy on his part, its only more recently that I've noticed him selling more cars that I've realised he's a trader.
I think I am less annoyed at the fact it failed (just one of those things if a private sale), but more annoyed that he is still advertising cars as a private seller, without the obligations that a trader has, and potentially doing all this without paying tax on the income. Yes there is a slight chance the story about the aunt was true, but realistically I think it was just a made up story and he is misleading potential buyers.
The car was always a risk at £500, we wouldn't have bought a more expensive car without documentation showing the cambelt was done, but at that value we took a chance and it back fired. I know that in a private sale there would me no come back at all.
At the time it failed we didn't think anything dodgy on his part, its only more recently that I've noticed him selling more cars that I've realised he's a trader.
I think I am less annoyed at the fact it failed (just one of those things if a private sale), but more annoyed that he is still advertising cars as a private seller, without the obligations that a trader has, and potentially doing all this without paying tax on the income. Yes there is a slight chance the story about the aunt was true, but realistically I think it was just a made up story and he is misleading potential buyers.
SMcP114 said:
Personally I don't see anything wrong with selling a few cars in your spare time, some even see it as a hobby. But they're all just swindlers, eh?
Tax evaders at the very least if they're not declaring income and paying taxes accordingly. Under £1,000 though, you're buying a car for spares or repair so there'll be little gained by going legal. So I would recommend options 1) and 4) to the OP.
SMcP114 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would get on and issue proceeedings in the small claims court to recover what was paid for the car. It's all very simple and done online. Cost is very small.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
What makes the guy a swindler?https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
IMO you have a very high chance of getting some money out of this guy who is clearly a swindler. He might, for instance, offer you £300 to drop the case at which point it would be sensible to cut and run.
The car was £500? It certainly doesn't sound like a trade sale to me as the margins in a £500 car would be minimal.
It's hard luck and I feel for the OP but realistically he will get nowhere with this. Unless the seller offers him a gesture of goodwill there is no comeback with this. I'm being realistic of course, and anyone with half an idea of the law regarding used cars will back me up on this.
Personally if I bought a £500 car and the cambelt failed I'd put it down as one of those things. Everyone's different though. Personally I don't see anything wrong with selling a few cars in your spare time, some even see it as a hobby. But they're all just swindlers, eh?
I agree that I would put this down to experience and move on. You could raise a small claims action but do you want the hassle for what is a relatively small sum? I like to sleep soundly at night, and you don't know how this guy (or his mates) may react to a court case. Even if you win the case you still have to enforce the judgement and if the guy is dodgy you may struggle to get anything (I was in court yesterday and caught the tail end of a case for rent arrears of £5000 - the defender stated they could only afford 20p a week!)
If you want to proceed, can you contact the previous owner and confirm how they disposed of the vehicle to confirm your suspicion? The fact the car was £500 is irrelevant in terms of whether the seller is a trader or not - he is either trading for profit or he isn't. If you feel he has shafted you and just want to get even, contact HMRC and the Trading Standards anonymously - that will potentially cause him more inconvenience than paying for your cambelt.
Edited by tim0409 on Tuesday 11th October 21:20
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