Taraka, the whole Taraka, nothing but the Taraka
Discussion
A couple of posts have pointed out there just doesn't seem to be too much around, other than the Power website, in regard to experience with this upgrade, so,as it has now been a couple of months since I picked up the Griff after the 1k service that is part of the rebuild I thought I'd share some thoughts and pics.
As part of this process, I've used several of the well known names that are an important part of keeping our cars alive - Dom at TVR Power and his team, Mark Adams, and Tim at ACT. I have to say that it has been a pleasure to deal with such a knowledgeable, dedicated and professional set of people. Having driven the car hard over the last few months, I have total confidence in the build. It is not shunty, pulls cleanly in 5TH from under 2k meaning,if I want,I can burble along through a village before opening up the taps pulling vividly through an epic flat torque spread to a power peak in the late 5ks. As you can tell, I'm seriously impressed. It feels subjectively significantly faster at all points of the rev range than it was before. What I really like is that Dom accurately described what I would get - "more of everything". If you like your standard 500 but are feeling a little shortchanged by "facts and data" that say it isn't as much of a beast as you thought you bought then finding out what a Taraka is like to drive should be on your list of things to do.
I said I was impressed by the dedication and professionalism of the people involved - I meant that both in the sense that I want to have confidence that there is both the technical expertise to diagnose and deliver solutions to problems and a determination to give the customer the best you can, when you said you would. This has been my personal experience of Dom and Mark from whom I had several calls through the day the car was being mapped which was made difficult by a combination of faults traced to ECU and T'pot. At 6pm Dom told me the car had been on the rollers for a while but was being problematic, a further call at 8pm they were out getting it refuelled and I thoughtthe chance of picking it up the following day (Growl) was gone; then I received a final call at gone 10pm and spoke to Mark who told me what they had found, and said, in a very matter of fact way,he was quite pleased with the results now, which had been backed off a little from the highest values achieved,and he hoped I would be too. I am. Facts and Data at the end.
So, as you will see, my engine is not quite standard Taraka. When I bought the car it was fitted with a couple of bits from Zertec - remember them ? - Anyway, the most significant item was the exhaust system, manifolds, cat through to quad pipes.
Other than the manifold, which has resulted in a move to Green injectors for flow, the rest of the build is normal Taraka. I do have the heat spacer and the sump is baffled. I'm running the standard Lucas 14CUX and air flow meter.
Spacer and limited view of some of the porting
Trumpets, who needs them when you've got torque like this ?
All back together. Having previously wrapped the manifolds with glass which had,after six years,begun to fall apart, I decided to ceramic coat. To a man, the specialists said go to Zircotec. There is a price difference togo to their colours range but I'm only doing it the once. Just be very sure you either see the sample box or check the pantone - as they now point out on the website - in real life, the colours are not the same. I haven't got what I expected, but still like it.
So, for some, the most important bit; Facts and Data. Here's the dyno readout. As is the norm at Power,these readings are at the wheels. As has been mentioned in earlier posts, Mark Adams suggested that I needed to ADD 21% to these numbers to go to fly. Is this right ? Don't know, but it was what I was expecting. 315 for a "normal" Taraka plus a couple more for the additional ACT pipework, plus 10 or so for the manifold.
What I can say, subjectively, is that the car feels more animal than ever before. It genuinely seems to lack compromise. It has power and torque in abundance coupled with smoothe delivery. Lets not forget it comes with a 3 year warranty which Dom has started for me from the 1k service due the ECU / T'pot issue I suffered. If I service the car at Power, that becomes 100k. Its propper service.
Is that it, keeping it normally aspirated ? Well, Dom has been running that new ECU on his Chim for some time now and told me he thought I could get to 350 with that installed....
As part of this process, I've used several of the well known names that are an important part of keeping our cars alive - Dom at TVR Power and his team, Mark Adams, and Tim at ACT. I have to say that it has been a pleasure to deal with such a knowledgeable, dedicated and professional set of people. Having driven the car hard over the last few months, I have total confidence in the build. It is not shunty, pulls cleanly in 5TH from under 2k meaning,if I want,I can burble along through a village before opening up the taps pulling vividly through an epic flat torque spread to a power peak in the late 5ks. As you can tell, I'm seriously impressed. It feels subjectively significantly faster at all points of the rev range than it was before. What I really like is that Dom accurately described what I would get - "more of everything". If you like your standard 500 but are feeling a little shortchanged by "facts and data" that say it isn't as much of a beast as you thought you bought then finding out what a Taraka is like to drive should be on your list of things to do.
I said I was impressed by the dedication and professionalism of the people involved - I meant that both in the sense that I want to have confidence that there is both the technical expertise to diagnose and deliver solutions to problems and a determination to give the customer the best you can, when you said you would. This has been my personal experience of Dom and Mark from whom I had several calls through the day the car was being mapped which was made difficult by a combination of faults traced to ECU and T'pot. At 6pm Dom told me the car had been on the rollers for a while but was being problematic, a further call at 8pm they were out getting it refuelled and I thoughtthe chance of picking it up the following day (Growl) was gone; then I received a final call at gone 10pm and spoke to Mark who told me what they had found, and said, in a very matter of fact way,he was quite pleased with the results now, which had been backed off a little from the highest values achieved,and he hoped I would be too. I am. Facts and Data at the end.
So, as you will see, my engine is not quite standard Taraka. When I bought the car it was fitted with a couple of bits from Zertec - remember them ? - Anyway, the most significant item was the exhaust system, manifolds, cat through to quad pipes.
Other than the manifold, which has resulted in a move to Green injectors for flow, the rest of the build is normal Taraka. I do have the heat spacer and the sump is baffled. I'm running the standard Lucas 14CUX and air flow meter.
Spacer and limited view of some of the porting
Trumpets, who needs them when you've got torque like this ?
All back together. Having previously wrapped the manifolds with glass which had,after six years,begun to fall apart, I decided to ceramic coat. To a man, the specialists said go to Zircotec. There is a price difference togo to their colours range but I'm only doing it the once. Just be very sure you either see the sample box or check the pantone - as they now point out on the website - in real life, the colours are not the same. I haven't got what I expected, but still like it.
So, for some, the most important bit; Facts and Data. Here's the dyno readout. As is the norm at Power,these readings are at the wheels. As has been mentioned in earlier posts, Mark Adams suggested that I needed to ADD 21% to these numbers to go to fly. Is this right ? Don't know, but it was what I was expecting. 315 for a "normal" Taraka plus a couple more for the additional ACT pipework, plus 10 or so for the manifold.
What I can say, subjectively, is that the car feels more animal than ever before. It genuinely seems to lack compromise. It has power and torque in abundance coupled with smoothe delivery. Lets not forget it comes with a 3 year warranty which Dom has started for me from the 1k service due the ECU / T'pot issue I suffered. If I service the car at Power, that becomes 100k. Its propper service.
Is that it, keeping it normally aspirated ? Well, Dom has been running that new ECU on his Chim for some time now and told me he thought I could get to 350 with that installed....
From memory the upgrade itself took a couple of weeks - longer in my case as I wanted the coloured hoses and there was a lead time getting through the ceramic coating process.
As to the transmission losses, well, maybe, maybe not. To be honest, all I can do is give the "at the wheels" data from the graph. It gives me a huge grin even thinking about driving it. Perhaps this is a better measure !
I wasn't clear in the OP that I do have the Tornado chip too - most will have guessed this. This was always on the cards due to the manifold, but fuelling is now as good as it can be on the Lucas. Dom has been clear about the benefit better spark control can bring and there has been a posting recently on OMEX that sounds interesting. Not sure when he will have anything to say about the new RV8 ECU. Should be interesting.
The motor is indeed getting better as it loosens off so perhaps will give better numbers in a years time. Really what I should be doing is addressing bushing and other suspension components. This was easily the best money I spent in 10 odd years of Wedge ownership. Just not sure that will be true with the Griff...
As to the transmission losses, well, maybe, maybe not. To be honest, all I can do is give the "at the wheels" data from the graph. It gives me a huge grin even thinking about driving it. Perhaps this is a better measure !
I wasn't clear in the OP that I do have the Tornado chip too - most will have guessed this. This was always on the cards due to the manifold, but fuelling is now as good as it can be on the Lucas. Dom has been clear about the benefit better spark control can bring and there has been a posting recently on OMEX that sounds interesting. Not sure when he will have anything to say about the new RV8 ECU. Should be interesting.
The motor is indeed getting better as it loosens off so perhaps will give better numbers in a years time. Really what I should be doing is addressing bushing and other suspension components. This was easily the best money I spent in 10 odd years of Wedge ownership. Just not sure that will be true with the Griff...
Yes agree, but unfortunately not.
The run up to the engine rebuild was that my daily driver was shunted at a roundabout and written off meaning I "had" to use the Griff for my cira 80 mile a day motorway commute. Car had begun to make a noise I didn't recognise and over the course of the next few weeks while insurance was sorted etc it got a lot worse. I suspected cam wear (tapping getting worse as the engine warmed) but it seemed like there was more than that too. I took the car to Power and discussed a pre run with Dom. He advised against it, even though I'd have paid for it, incase of further damage.
When I picked the car up I was shown the remains of the innerds - cam was worn, but not that badly, also had some bearing wear but the rocker gear was not great - had lost at least one of the pads. The new build has steel.
If I were to guess, I'd say it adds another 40 - 50 at the fly. I say this as previous people who have serviced the car in my tenure - David Batty and Fernhursts both commented without prompting that it was one of the quick ones. Maybe they say that to everyone ! Anyway, quick standard ones seem to have circa 285 at fly and if you use the fly conversion I was given mine is just short of 330.
The run up to the engine rebuild was that my daily driver was shunted at a roundabout and written off meaning I "had" to use the Griff for my cira 80 mile a day motorway commute. Car had begun to make a noise I didn't recognise and over the course of the next few weeks while insurance was sorted etc it got a lot worse. I suspected cam wear (tapping getting worse as the engine warmed) but it seemed like there was more than that too. I took the car to Power and discussed a pre run with Dom. He advised against it, even though I'd have paid for it, incase of further damage.
When I picked the car up I was shown the remains of the innerds - cam was worn, but not that badly, also had some bearing wear but the rocker gear was not great - had lost at least one of the pads. The new build has steel.
If I were to guess, I'd say it adds another 40 - 50 at the fly. I say this as previous people who have serviced the car in my tenure - David Batty and Fernhursts both commented without prompting that it was one of the quick ones. Maybe they say that to everyone ! Anyway, quick standard ones seem to have circa 285 at fly and if you use the fly conversion I was given mine is just short of 330.
...a thing of beauty - very impressed! Interesting to compare your dyno results with an earlier post http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=9&t=1065643&mid=271131&nmt=Rolling+Road+Result
I'm a complete newbie to TVR - is there this much variability in the standard engines after ten+ years of hard use or is it a case of choose the right rolling road, get the figures you want/need/expect...?
I'm a complete newbie to TVR - is there this much variability in the standard engines after ten+ years of hard use or is it a case of choose the right rolling road, get the figures you want/need/expect...?
Hi I suspect yes to all ! The only thing you can do is compare cars on the same rolling road.
TVR Beaver posted a TVR Power dyno sheet a few weeks ago in an interesting thread on spark. He's getting pretty much the same results, but I don't know what his engine build is, although I think he has the same cam.
Difficult to compare when Power use figures at the wheels rather than flywheel. Seems to me figures "at the wheels" might be less variable between different rolling roads, and therefore more comparable, but the values are lower and nobody wants that when its their P&J! I put the "facts and data" in because I know I devour this kind of info whenever its posted. In the end, whatever the numbers say, its the effect on the road that counts. Griffs and other TVRs still look better, sound better, and accelerate more quickly than just about anything else - even in standard form.
TVR Beaver posted a TVR Power dyno sheet a few weeks ago in an interesting thread on spark. He's getting pretty much the same results, but I don't know what his engine build is, although I think he has the same cam.
Difficult to compare when Power use figures at the wheels rather than flywheel. Seems to me figures "at the wheels" might be less variable between different rolling roads, and therefore more comparable, but the values are lower and nobody wants that when its their P&J! I put the "facts and data" in because I know I devour this kind of info whenever its posted. In the end, whatever the numbers say, its the effect on the road that counts. Griffs and other TVRs still look better, sound better, and accelerate more quickly than just about anything else - even in standard form.
Hi John.. here it is again:-
,
,
you are in front of me for sure with a flatter torque curve ... I've already had the graphs side by side
I'm 885 with a 72mm plenum.. 45mm trumpets,,, Bosch MAF... Pre cats removed.. but timing at 25 deg as I was getting pinking... drag it back to 30 deg and I should be close to yours...
I tend to agree with the comment earlier also.. about 15% is a bit more believable to me... although I can't loose a 290 HP car in a straight line... so who knows??
,
,
you are in front of me for sure with a flatter torque curve ... I've already had the graphs side by side
I'm 885 with a 72mm plenum.. 45mm trumpets,,, Bosch MAF... Pre cats removed.. but timing at 25 deg as I was getting pinking... drag it back to 30 deg and I should be close to yours...
I tend to agree with the comment earlier also.. about 15% is a bit more believable to me... although I can't loose a 290 HP car in a straight line... so who knows??
Hi TVR Beaver, thanks for putting the chart up, don't suppose you know how much changing the the AFM made ? Like you I have no pre-cats either. I think you're spot on - its the effect that counts in the real world and that's probably just as much to do with suspension and set up as outright power ("nothing without control" I seem to remember..) Has anything more come of your looking at the OMEX ? re reading your earlier threads seems like we've been going down a similar path ?
John
John
Omex... was hoping one may come up second hand... coz all it with set up etc.. its another £1k if you buy new by the time you've finished...
although if one didn't.. I think I'd be okay to leave it as is... you can go on for ever with these things can't you... Would be nice to have though... obviously playing with the weights / springs in the dizzy in my case should resolve the issue... but its how much time you actualy have to do this sort of thing... John
although if one didn't.. I think I'd be okay to leave it as is... you can go on for ever with these things can't you... Would be nice to have though... obviously playing with the weights / springs in the dizzy in my case should resolve the issue... but its how much time you actualy have to do this sort of thing... John
That's interesting - mine was 245 at the wheels as standard on the TVR Power Dyno back in July, before I had any work done, so only 17bhp atw behind yours at the time.
When (if - lol) it's finished it's going back to Power for an after run - as people rightly say, the only meaningful comparison is before and after on the same dyno and even then it's subject to massive variation: even tyre pressures make a difference.
When (if - lol) it's finished it's going back to Power for an after run - as people rightly say, the only meaningful comparison is before and after on the same dyno and even then it's subject to massive variation: even tyre pressures make a difference.
Jammy Dodger said:
That's interesting - mine was 245 at the wheels as standard on the TVR Power Dyno back in July, before I had any work done, so only 17bhp atw behind yours at the time.
When (if - lol) it's finished it's going back to Power for an after run - as people rightly say, the only meaningful comparison is before and after on the same dyno and even then it's subject to massive variation: even tyre pressures make a difference.
So work that to Fly at say 15% and you get 281 for yours and 301 for mine.... I agree... mine was about 280 as std.....When (if - lol) it's finished it's going back to Power for an after run - as people rightly say, the only meaningful comparison is before and after on the same dyno and even then it's subject to massive variation: even tyre pressures make a difference.
Makes you wonder don't it!!...;)
TVR Beaver said:
So work that to Fly at say 15% and you get 281 for yours and 301 for mine.... I agree... mine was about 280 as std.....
Makes you wonder don't it!!...;)
I'm told, but not sure, that you add 21% from the ATW figure to work out the at the fly, but -15% from the fly figure to get the ATWMakes you wonder don't it!!...;)
Hi John,
Great write up on your recent build, there is not a lot of info on the Taraka build on PH so it is great to see a detailed thread.
Looking at the various offerings from engine builders I think the Taraka would be my choice if my engine went bang. I am a big fan of the torque you get from the standard TVR RV8. I know I lot of good folk decide to exchange some of that low end torque for high end BHP but I personally prefer torque That flat torque you have as early as 1750RPM is epic, I bet the car is very drivable and feels very rapid indeed. Not to mention that when you do put your foot down you have the piece of mind of that 3 year warranty
The figures on the graphs are very impressive indeed especially when you consider they are at the wheels.... I bet you are very pleased. Do you know if the Takara upgrade replaces the standard hydraulic lifters with solid lifters?
That is a very nice engine bay you have there too.
Do you know what ECU Dom is running in his Chim.... is it the MBE unit he posted about a while back?
Matthew
Great write up on your recent build, there is not a lot of info on the Taraka build on PH so it is great to see a detailed thread.
Looking at the various offerings from engine builders I think the Taraka would be my choice if my engine went bang. I am a big fan of the torque you get from the standard TVR RV8. I know I lot of good folk decide to exchange some of that low end torque for high end BHP but I personally prefer torque That flat torque you have as early as 1750RPM is epic, I bet the car is very drivable and feels very rapid indeed. Not to mention that when you do put your foot down you have the piece of mind of that 3 year warranty
The figures on the graphs are very impressive indeed especially when you consider they are at the wheels.... I bet you are very pleased. Do you know if the Takara upgrade replaces the standard hydraulic lifters with solid lifters?
That is a very nice engine bay you have there too.
Do you know what ECU Dom is running in his Chim.... is it the MBE unit he posted about a while back?
Matthew
Hi John, yes there are endless opportunities to fiddle but not enough time to do so; I'd rather be driving it and deminishing returns must be approaching. Close to dbV8 without gas... better not start investigating that, what with Christmas coming !
Thanks Matthew, glad you liked the post. Like you, I enjoy the big torque flexibility and have lost none of that sense at all - its actually much better than it was. I think the manifold contributes to this as well. What I have noticed, despite all that torque, is that I'm enjoying spending more time higher up the rev range on the open road.
As to lifters, I think the first generation Taraka's, if that's the right term, did use solid lifters and a more aggressive cam. For my build, which is number 40 of the "Taraka Plus" it retains the hydraulic lifter, which I was keen on from a maintenance perspective having found them fuss free over a long period. The 885 cam doesn't need solid lifters.
As for the ECU, I was concerned I was making a mistake by having a replacement Lucas when there are other alternatives. The charts say there's life in the Lucas yet, so I'm relaxed about it now - its working fine with the Tornado chip and I wanted the car back to drive as quickly as I could. I did ask Dom about the new ECU when I picked the car up - it is MBE, and one of the reasons for this seems to have been missed so far; quite simply, its about trying to evolve the cars while keeping true to what TVR did and the components they chose to work with. At that time, he had been running it in his Chim for a few months but it wasn't sufficiently developed for release. I don't know any technical details, but he did say that decent spark control would result in good gains. Haven't seen anything more about it, perhaps he's been distracted with turbos.
Have to say, you've been doing some great stuff to your car, looks excellent - like you, probably a wheel refurb for me next.
John
Thanks Matthew, glad you liked the post. Like you, I enjoy the big torque flexibility and have lost none of that sense at all - its actually much better than it was. I think the manifold contributes to this as well. What I have noticed, despite all that torque, is that I'm enjoying spending more time higher up the rev range on the open road.
As to lifters, I think the first generation Taraka's, if that's the right term, did use solid lifters and a more aggressive cam. For my build, which is number 40 of the "Taraka Plus" it retains the hydraulic lifter, which I was keen on from a maintenance perspective having found them fuss free over a long period. The 885 cam doesn't need solid lifters.
As for the ECU, I was concerned I was making a mistake by having a replacement Lucas when there are other alternatives. The charts say there's life in the Lucas yet, so I'm relaxed about it now - its working fine with the Tornado chip and I wanted the car back to drive as quickly as I could. I did ask Dom about the new ECU when I picked the car up - it is MBE, and one of the reasons for this seems to have been missed so far; quite simply, its about trying to evolve the cars while keeping true to what TVR did and the components they chose to work with. At that time, he had been running it in his Chim for a few months but it wasn't sufficiently developed for release. I don't know any technical details, but he did say that decent spark control would result in good gains. Haven't seen anything more about it, perhaps he's been distracted with turbos.
Have to say, you've been doing some great stuff to your car, looks excellent - like you, probably a wheel refurb for me next.
John
Hi John, yes there are endless opportunities to fiddle but not enough time to do so; I'd rather be driving it and deminishing returns must be approaching. Close to dbV8 without gas... better not start investigating that, what with Christmas coming !
Thanks Matthew, glad you liked the post. Like you, I enjoy the big torque flexibility and have lost none of that sense at all - its actually much better than it was. I think the manifold contributes to this as well. What I have noticed, despite all that torque, is that I'm enjoying spending more time higher up the rev range on the open road.
As to lifters, I think the first generation Taraka's, if that's the right term, did use solid lifters and a more aggressive cam. For my build, which is number 40 of the "Taraka Plus" it retains the hydraulic lifter, which I was keen on from a maintenance perspective having found them fuss free over a long period. The 885 cam doesn't need solid lifters.
As for the ECU, I was concerned I was making a mistake by having a replacement Lucas when there are other alternatives. The charts say there's life in the Lucas yet, so I'm relaxed about it now - its working fine with the Tornado chip and I wanted the car back to drive as quickly as I could. I did ask Dom about the new ECU when I picked the car up - it is MBE, and one of the reasons for this seems to have been missed so far; quite simply, its about trying to evolve the cars while keeping true to what TVR did and the components they chose to work with. At that time, he had been running it in his Chim for a few months but it wasn't sufficiently developed for release. I don't know any technical details, but he did say that decent spark control would result in good gains. Haven't seen anything more about it, perhaps he's been distracted with turbos.
Have to say, you've been doing some great stuff to your car, looks excellent - like you, probably a wheel refurb for me next.
John
Thanks Matthew, glad you liked the post. Like you, I enjoy the big torque flexibility and have lost none of that sense at all - its actually much better than it was. I think the manifold contributes to this as well. What I have noticed, despite all that torque, is that I'm enjoying spending more time higher up the rev range on the open road.
As to lifters, I think the first generation Taraka's, if that's the right term, did use solid lifters and a more aggressive cam. For my build, which is number 40 of the "Taraka Plus" it retains the hydraulic lifter, which I was keen on from a maintenance perspective having found them fuss free over a long period. The 885 cam doesn't need solid lifters.
As for the ECU, I was concerned I was making a mistake by having a replacement Lucas when there are other alternatives. The charts say there's life in the Lucas yet, so I'm relaxed about it now - its working fine with the Tornado chip and I wanted the car back to drive as quickly as I could. I did ask Dom about the new ECU when I picked the car up - it is MBE, and one of the reasons for this seems to have been missed so far; quite simply, its about trying to evolve the cars while keeping true to what TVR did and the components they chose to work with. At that time, he had been running it in his Chim for a few months but it wasn't sufficiently developed for release. I don't know any technical details, but he did say that decent spark control would result in good gains. Haven't seen anything more about it, perhaps he's been distracted with turbos.
Have to say, you've been doing some great stuff to your car, looks excellent - like you, probably a wheel refurb for me next.
John
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