Spain's stolen babies
Discussion
I'm not going to bash the Catholic church - although I have my reasons for being firmly against Catholicism, but I do wonder how it is that organised religion can condone such an act as this linked one - on top of all the other scandals that they preside over?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899
BBC Story said:
The practice of removing children from parents deemed "undesirable" and placing them with "approved" families, began in the 1930s under the dictator General Francisco Franco.
At that time, the motivation may have been ideological. But years later, it seemed to change - babies began to be taken from parents considered morally - or economically - deficient. It became a money-spinner, too.
The scandal is closely linked to the Catholic Church, which under Franco assumed a prominent role in Spain's social services including hospitals, schools and children's homes.
Nuns and priests compiled waiting lists of would-be adoptive parents, while doctors were said to have lied to mothers about the fate of their children.
At that time, the motivation may have been ideological. But years later, it seemed to change - babies began to be taken from parents considered morally - or economically - deficient. It became a money-spinner, too.
The scandal is closely linked to the Catholic Church, which under Franco assumed a prominent role in Spain's social services including hospitals, schools and children's homes.
Nuns and priests compiled waiting lists of would-be adoptive parents, while doctors were said to have lied to mothers about the fate of their children.
Heard about the story this morning.
Women were told there baies had died in child birth by nuns and priests. The women would not question it because why would members of the church lie? They were trusted.
These trusted people then sold on these babies for the eqivelent of around £16k today each.
Hmmm God does indeed work in mysterious ways. Organised religeon the oldest scam in the book.
Women were told there baies had died in child birth by nuns and priests. The women would not question it because why would members of the church lie? They were trusted.
These trusted people then sold on these babies for the eqivelent of around £16k today each.
Hmmm God does indeed work in mysterious ways. Organised religeon the oldest scam in the book.
thinfourth2 said:
Sorry fail to see the problem here
We should do the same here with young chavlings
^^^^^We should do the same here with young chavlings
This in all serious.
Without going into too much detail is something I believe in, how many people yearn for a child of their own and are refused by countless pile of red tape, people that others know would make ideal parents, but for whatever reason are unable to do so naturally, but countless wasters just seem to drop kids left, right and centre.
Don't get me wrong many of that ilk do make excellent parents but we have all witnessed Wayne and Waynetta swearing at there children, ignoring their cries etc whilst out and about, when you personally know someone who has tried and tried to adopt, foster etc and see the heartache in their faces as doors close whilst kids up and down the country need homes in a loving and caring enviroment then suddenly the thought of an "agency" removing newborns from truly unsuitable parents seems a practical solution.
The Catholic church is not as homogenous as people assume and different parts have different ways of doing things, treating their flock and also most importantly interacting with the local authorities.
The Spanish Catholic church is and has been for centuries the most political of the parts of the Catholic church. Remember the Spanish inquisition? It took a French invasion to stop that happening after 400 years.
I am therefore not surprised to see this happening under Franco, a little more surprised that it went on into the 90s.
The Spanish Catholic church is and has been for centuries the most political of the parts of the Catholic church. Remember the Spanish inquisition? It took a French invasion to stop that happening after 400 years.
I am therefore not surprised to see this happening under Franco, a little more surprised that it went on into the 90s.
kdri155 said:
thinfourth2 said:
Sorry fail to see the problem here
We should do the same here with young chavlings
^^^^^We should do the same here with young chavlings
This in all serious.
Without going into too much detail is something I believe in, how many people yearn for a child of their own and are refused by countless pile of red tape, people that others know would make ideal parents, but for whatever reason are unable to do so naturally, but countless wasters just seem to drop kids left, right and centre.
Don't get me wrong many of that ilk do make excellent parents but we have all witnessed Wayne and Waynetta swearing at there children, ignoring their cries etc whilst out and about, when you personally know someone who has tried and tried to adopt, foster etc and see the heartache in their faces as doors close whilst kids up and down the country need homes in a loving and caring enviroment then suddenly the thought of an "agency" removing newborns from truly unsuitable parents seems a practical solution.
kdri155 said:
Don't get me wrong many of that ilk do make excellent parents but we have all witnessed Wayne and Waynetta swearing at there children, ignoring their cries etc whilst out and about, when you personally know someone who has tried and tried to adopt, foster etc and see the heartache in their faces as doors close whilst kids up and down the country need homes in a loving and caring environment then suddenly the thought of an "agency" removing newborns from truly unsuitable parents seems a practical solution.
There are many "practical solutions" which are also morally repugnant. The State has no business confiscating children from their parents unless those children are at immediate risk of serious harm. It is a fundamental human right to procreate. The fact that there is a section of society who receive far more than they contribute economically, and who raise children in ways that others find objectionable, has no bearing on this.How do these things happen?
Power
Arrogance
Lack of accountability
Subservience of the population
Reluctance to criticise authority
All these factors work together to allow those in authority - whether it be church, state or some other body - to do what they like.
Most of those perpetrating these actions probably felt they were doing it for the good of
- the country
- society
- the mother
- the child
- the institution
It's amazing what evil can be perpetrated by those who are comvinced they are doing "the right thing".
Power
Arrogance
Lack of accountability
Subservience of the population
Reluctance to criticise authority
All these factors work together to allow those in authority - whether it be church, state or some other body - to do what they like.
Most of those perpetrating these actions probably felt they were doing it for the good of
- the country
- society
- the mother
- the child
- the institution
It's amazing what evil can be perpetrated by those who are comvinced they are doing "the right thing".
HundredthIdiot said:
It is a fundamental human right to procreate. The fact that there is a section of society who receive far more than they contribute economically, and who raise children in ways that others find objectionable, has no bearing on this.
So, like we see justifiable homocide, this would be justifiable child-abuse - This fundamental human right needs to be seriously challenged as some of the perpetrators of non-requisite procreation have deviated too much from being recognisable humans.....Just as there are means tests nowadays for what were once fundamental rights so there shuld be suitablity tests for potential parents. Prevention is the cure!
Naga said:
So, like we see justifiable homocide, this would be justifiable child-abuse - This fundamental human right needs to be seriously challenged as some of the perpetrators of non-requisite procreation have deviated too much from being recognisable humans.....
Just as there are means tests nowadays for what were once fundamental rights so there shuld be suitablity tests for potential parents. Prevention is the cure!
Absolutely stunned and shocked to read this type of comment.Just as there are means tests nowadays for what were once fundamental rights so there shuld be suitablity tests for potential parents. Prevention is the cure!
Who, in your world, would decide who was worthy and who was unworthy?
What criteria would you use?
These types of posts only serve to remind us all that the evil, dark and downright dastardly thought processes that lead us to the most unimaginable horrors of genocide are all lurking beneath the surface of EVERY society.
Isn't the internet wonderful at times
To go back to the programme itself, some of the aspects of the wrong doing were absolutely horrific - the babies were taken away from their mothers at birth and the mothers were told that their baby had died just after birth.
If that's not bad enough the doctor who carried out the scam kept a frozen baby's body for the sole purpose of showing the mother a dead baby for her to say goodbye to and make the scam more believable.
It's absolutley mind-boggling what some people will do.
If that's not bad enough the doctor who carried out the scam kept a frozen baby's body for the sole purpose of showing the mother a dead baby for her to say goodbye to and make the scam more believable.
It's absolutley mind-boggling what some people will do.
bucksmanuk said:
One of the basic premises of life..........
It’s not the out and out criminal you have to be aware of - it’s the ignorant pious ones who are convinced what they are doing is correct.
Not just the ignorant pious ones. Educated pious ones are probably even more dangerous as they will have rationalised everything to convince themselves that they are in the right and, what's more, intellectually and morally superior to those are they are abusing.It’s not the out and out criminal you have to be aware of - it’s the ignorant pious ones who are convinced what they are doing is correct.
Justayellowbadge said:
One could have lived in blind ignorance of everything that had ever happened in the history of everything, ever, and still be valid in criticism of that lot.
Worth remembering that the CofE was quite happy to ship off "unwanted children" to the colonies for almost exactly the same period as the Spanish did thisEdited by Mikeyboy on Wednesday 19th October 13:44
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