Discussion
Ok - open to the floor, been looking for an already made/nearly finished kit car. Thing is I'm not sure which one to go for. Ive had a few nippy cars in the past and now having had kids had to go to a four door.
I'm now in the position to get a nice little 7 esque kit car for a weekend blast but Im worried that my 5k will get me something pinto powered that might not really cut the mustard. Ive seen a few v6 tigers but was wondering if the engine weight would offset the additional power? Anyone experienced one?
As you might of guessed I'm new to the kit car market - any ideas where to focus my hard earned. I was told to avoid the early robin hood cars due to a box sectioned chassis?
I'm now in the position to get a nice little 7 esque kit car for a weekend blast but Im worried that my 5k will get me something pinto powered that might not really cut the mustard. Ive seen a few v6 tigers but was wondering if the engine weight would offset the additional power? Anyone experienced one?
As you might of guessed I'm new to the kit car market - any ideas where to focus my hard earned. I was told to avoid the early robin hood cars due to a box sectioned chassis?
Four Litre said:
Ok - open to the floor, been looking for an already made/nearly finished kit car. Thing is I'm not sure which one to go for. Ive had a few nippy cars in the past and now having had kids had to go to a four door.
I'm now in the position to get a nice little 7 esque kit car for a weekend blast but Im worried that my 5k will get me something pinto powered that might not really cut the mustard. Ive seen a few v6 tigers but was wondering if the engine weight would offset the additional power? Anyone experienced one?
As you might of guessed I'm new to the kit car market - any ideas where to focus my hard earned. I was told to avoid the early robin hood cars due to a box sectioned chassis?
Its a buyers market currently in Kit Cars as elsewhere.I'm now in the position to get a nice little 7 esque kit car for a weekend blast but Im worried that my 5k will get me something pinto powered that might not really cut the mustard. Ive seen a few v6 tigers but was wondering if the engine weight would offset the additional power? Anyone experienced one?
As you might of guessed I'm new to the kit car market - any ideas where to focus my hard earned. I was told to avoid the early robin hood cars due to a box sectioned chassis?
Go for a kit which fits you. The Super Seven type of cars can be very restrictive in height and width. Worth checking first!
Try to find a car with modern suspension and braking systems the old sierra based kits are really too out of date today.
Ford engines mean lots of easy power uplifts and IMO are pretty good strong engines. My 1800cc Duratec turns out 225BHP without turbo. Done over 10,00 miles now excellent kit.
You should get a decent car complete and driving for £5000.
Take great care checking that the registration of the kit car has been correctly done. A great many Kit Cars still run on their old original registration and VOSA and the DVLA are getting unhappy about this.
Good Luck.
A great deal depends on the actual build of the actual example you are looking at.
The Tiger should be the better of the two but I have seen very good RH's. On average the Tiger will be the better car,
If you negotiate wisely you may well get a Westfield at this money.
Kit cars are not selling and I have seen Westfield's sold at less than £5,000.
Just make sure you check everything on the car in question.
There is very little quality control in Kit Cars and without being difficult I would reasonably ask for every statement to be properly confirmed by inspection.
Most enthusiasts will welcome the detailed interest.
With Kit Cars a pound of careful inspection is worth a ton of smooth talk.
The Tiger should be the better of the two but I have seen very good RH's. On average the Tiger will be the better car,
If you negotiate wisely you may well get a Westfield at this money.
Kit cars are not selling and I have seen Westfield's sold at less than £5,000.
Just make sure you check everything on the car in question.
There is very little quality control in Kit Cars and without being difficult I would reasonably ask for every statement to be properly confirmed by inspection.
Most enthusiasts will welcome the detailed interest.
With Kit Cars a pound of careful inspection is worth a ton of smooth talk.
well i havent paid tons of attention to prices in teh last few weeks, bit here's my 2penneth.
5k is likely to be pinto territory - not a prob, but enter with eyes open and dont expect to turn a docile pinto into a firebreathing 200 monster unless you have £0000's.
140-170bhp in a most 7esque cars is enough to start with, once you've learnt to use all that power perhaps an upgrade although often cheaper to sell and move on.
Doesnt matter whether its a tiger/mk/westie - its how it was screwed together.
Sorry Steffan dont agree with the advice re/ sierra underpinnings - brakes/suspension, for most ppl thats not really an issue: sierra brakes will easily stop a 600-700kg car, and teh suspension whatever its off is all about being set up in a sensible/reasonable manner. Cant see the OP's post now i've started to type this, but dont think he was necessarily looking to be doing loads of track work.
questions to consider - you work out your own views.
a car registered last year could have been started 10 years ago, in that time its been sat around - possibly perfectly kept - but dont let age fool you.
many cars have done just a few hundred miles each year - do you go for one of those or one thats done say 5k a year ( my own pref would be the latter, its likely to have been proven on regular/longer trips).
upgrades even if you do them yourself are expensive, upgrades being anything that you decide you want to change - not just power: seats/brakes/paint etc. So think carefully - sometimes stretching teh budget by a bit will save you money.
find a local club and bag a few passenger rides, or get lucky and maybe get a drive: can you fit in the various models in your price range? aside from power do you notice significant differences.
disregard any power claims unless backed up by a very recent rolling rd printout.
in order of personal pref i'd buy a car from:
teh guy who built it with a lovely build diary/log + a ton of receipts
2nd/3rd owners - ideally the last having had the car a while and who knows what its all about, not someone who owned it for 8 mths and did 200 miles ( they'll be useless if you need to pick brain after purchase)
garage - unless they are a specialist dealer i'll wager they know naff all about the car and will likely trot out a load of salesy rubbish ' oh yeah it'll do 0-60 in '
happy to be proved wrong, but i reckon that you're a grand or so short of a decent 2.0 zetec, and know 2 Tigers - both S6's that sold recently for a shade over that.
no idea where you're located, if you're in the south east give me a shout if you want and will arrange a few rides for you.
5k is likely to be pinto territory - not a prob, but enter with eyes open and dont expect to turn a docile pinto into a firebreathing 200 monster unless you have £0000's.
140-170bhp in a most 7esque cars is enough to start with, once you've learnt to use all that power perhaps an upgrade although often cheaper to sell and move on.
Doesnt matter whether its a tiger/mk/westie - its how it was screwed together.
Sorry Steffan dont agree with the advice re/ sierra underpinnings - brakes/suspension, for most ppl thats not really an issue: sierra brakes will easily stop a 600-700kg car, and teh suspension whatever its off is all about being set up in a sensible/reasonable manner. Cant see the OP's post now i've started to type this, but dont think he was necessarily looking to be doing loads of track work.
questions to consider - you work out your own views.
a car registered last year could have been started 10 years ago, in that time its been sat around - possibly perfectly kept - but dont let age fool you.
many cars have done just a few hundred miles each year - do you go for one of those or one thats done say 5k a year ( my own pref would be the latter, its likely to have been proven on regular/longer trips).
upgrades even if you do them yourself are expensive, upgrades being anything that you decide you want to change - not just power: seats/brakes/paint etc. So think carefully - sometimes stretching teh budget by a bit will save you money.
find a local club and bag a few passenger rides, or get lucky and maybe get a drive: can you fit in the various models in your price range? aside from power do you notice significant differences.
disregard any power claims unless backed up by a very recent rolling rd printout.
in order of personal pref i'd buy a car from:
teh guy who built it with a lovely build diary/log + a ton of receipts
2nd/3rd owners - ideally the last having had the car a while and who knows what its all about, not someone who owned it for 8 mths and did 200 miles ( they'll be useless if you need to pick brain after purchase)
garage - unless they are a specialist dealer i'll wager they know naff all about the car and will likely trot out a load of salesy rubbish ' oh yeah it'll do 0-60 in '
happy to be proved wrong, but i reckon that you're a grand or so short of a decent 2.0 zetec, and know 2 Tigers - both S6's that sold recently for a shade over that.
no idea where you're located, if you're in the south east give me a shout if you want and will arrange a few rides for you.
I've driven a Fisher Fury, Westfield and own a Caterham and I would say the Fisher drove just as well. The chassis in a Sylva/RAW Striker is very similar, so keep an eye out for them if you fit (I don't!).
Pintos are very heavy and fuel consumption can be a problem if a friend of mines experience is typical.
The crossflow can be a lovely engine in the right tune, but won't reach zetec/duratec power.
120bhp is a lot of fun in a 500Kg kit, so I wouldn't get overly worried by bhp. Certainly I think a light 4 cylinder with 120 -140 bhp would be preferable to a V6 or V8 with more power as the proportion of engine weight to the total car weight means the balance is affected much more than in a saloon.
Duncan
Pintos are very heavy and fuel consumption can be a problem if a friend of mines experience is typical.
The crossflow can be a lovely engine in the right tune, but won't reach zetec/duratec power.
120bhp is a lot of fun in a 500Kg kit, so I wouldn't get overly worried by bhp. Certainly I think a light 4 cylinder with 120 -140 bhp would be preferable to a V6 or V8 with more power as the proportion of engine weight to the total car weight means the balance is affected much more than in a saloon.
Duncan
You might just get into a Westie with 5k...
BUT, I'm not sure there will be much choice out there right now. I'd expect the only people selling will be those who have to due to personal circumstances changing. The rest will probably wait until spring to eek out a higher selling price.
Worth checking th club websites though as sometimes cars appear on them but not over here.
Would definitely agree that lighter 4pot makes more sense than heavy v8 - but don't necessarily write off the earlier Ford engines. They're well proven, albeit heavy.
As others have said, condition more important than age. Focus on the bits that are difficult/expensive to change. And sub 150bhp can still be good fun - indeed, well driven you can still harass some quite expensive metal at a track day. Don't forget, if you do get seduced by more powerful cars, that the powerband can be such that they're less tractable on the road than a lower powered engine/less aggressive tune.
ETA: there are some horror stories out there about folk getting fingers burnt on "almost finished" cars - I'd probably avoid if keeping to budget is important.
BUT, I'm not sure there will be much choice out there right now. I'd expect the only people selling will be those who have to due to personal circumstances changing. The rest will probably wait until spring to eek out a higher selling price.
Worth checking th club websites though as sometimes cars appear on them but not over here.
Would definitely agree that lighter 4pot makes more sense than heavy v8 - but don't necessarily write off the earlier Ford engines. They're well proven, albeit heavy.
As others have said, condition more important than age. Focus on the bits that are difficult/expensive to change. And sub 150bhp can still be good fun - indeed, well driven you can still harass some quite expensive metal at a track day. Don't forget, if you do get seduced by more powerful cars, that the powerband can be such that they're less tractable on the road than a lower powered engine/less aggressive tune.
ETA: there are some horror stories out there about folk getting fingers burnt on "almost finished" cars - I'd probably avoid if keeping to budget is important.
under no circumstances a RobinHood...even not for 3500.....
a fisher fury, sylva striker, older westfield se, should be easy to find for 5k...and for 5k they should be in very, very good condition....engine pinto or crossflow, with a bit of luck a zetec.
recently a MK Indy, IRS, was sold with a tuned Toyota 4AGE engine, Quaife Torsen diff, 5-speed T9, full roll cage, 2003 modell with a 86 reg for 4200,-
its actually a buyers market...especially as the winter is arriving.
time will turn-up a well priced car as most cars which are acutally offered for sale, are 20-30% overpriced.lets say "still overpriced"...as most of them are advertized since weeks, so the sellers will soon learn that they have to drop the prices, otherwise the car will sit on their premises until next spring.
maybe this car is interesting for you:
http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/sylv...
should go for 3500...
a fisher fury, sylva striker, older westfield se, should be easy to find for 5k...and for 5k they should be in very, very good condition....engine pinto or crossflow, with a bit of luck a zetec.
recently a MK Indy, IRS, was sold with a tuned Toyota 4AGE engine, Quaife Torsen diff, 5-speed T9, full roll cage, 2003 modell with a 86 reg for 4200,-
its actually a buyers market...especially as the winter is arriving.
time will turn-up a well priced car as most cars which are acutally offered for sale, are 20-30% overpriced.lets say "still overpriced"...as most of them are advertized since weeks, so the sellers will soon learn that they have to drop the prices, otherwise the car will sit on their premises until next spring.
maybe this car is interesting for you:
http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/sylv...
should go for 3500...
Edited by Comadis on Sunday 23 October 16:07
Comadis said:
under no circumstances a RobinHood...even not for 3500.....
a fisher fury, sylva striker, older westfield se, should be easy to find for 5k...and for 5k they should be in very, very good condition....engine pinto or crossflow, with a bit of luck a zetec.
recently a MK Indy, IRS, was sold with a tuned Toyota 4AGE engine, Quaife Torsen diff, 5-speed T9, full roll cage, 2003 modell with a 86 reg for 4200,-
its actually a buyers market...especially as the winter is arriving.
time will turn-up a well priced car as most cars which are acutally offered for sale, are 20-30% overpriced.lets say "still overpriced"...as most of them are advertized since weeks, so the sellers will soon learn that they have to drop the prices, otherwise the car will sit on their premises until next spring.
maybe this car is interesting for you:
http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/sylv...
should go for 3500...
+1 a fisher fury, sylva striker, older westfield se, should be easy to find for 5k...and for 5k they should be in very, very good condition....engine pinto or crossflow, with a bit of luck a zetec.
recently a MK Indy, IRS, was sold with a tuned Toyota 4AGE engine, Quaife Torsen diff, 5-speed T9, full roll cage, 2003 modell with a 86 reg for 4200,-
its actually a buyers market...especially as the winter is arriving.
time will turn-up a well priced car as most cars which are acutally offered for sale, are 20-30% overpriced.lets say "still overpriced"...as most of them are advertized since weeks, so the sellers will soon learn that they have to drop the prices, otherwise the car will sit on their premises until next spring.
maybe this car is interesting for you:
http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/sylv...
should go for 3500...
Edited by Comadis on Sunday 23 October 16:07
Westfield, Sylva Striker, Fischer Fury all available in the real world currently for this money. And all LOT better than a Robin Hood.
The MK Indy shows how prices are falling. I do not like it but they just are.
That is in a lot of car for the Money!!! Oh well back to my builds.
The cheapest Westfield I know of was bought by my mate for £2,400... A yellow 'carbed 1600 CVH car. As the Westfield owners forum was debating what must be wrong with it my friend was zooming up th M1 to the guys house with a trailer in tow. He spent £300 MoT'ing it and took it to the Alps with us, 2,500 miles in 10 days. Apart from a dodgy ECU connector it ran faultlessly. Then he sold it on for about £4k.
My point is there are some real bargains out there to be had, if you keep a wad of cash handy and keep your eat to the ground and get in quick. So people like the guy who sold the Westy just done want them anymore, and a reasonable bid will get them.
Just remembered another guy in our club who bought a Tiget Cat E1 for £1,000, hardly used and visually tidy with a Pinto in. Greenwood above knows him too. That is an exception granted, but you £5k is a fair budget in this climate. I'd be looking at a Westfield, Tiger, Sylva or MK at that money.
My point is there are some real bargains out there to be had, if you keep a wad of cash handy and keep your eat to the ground and get in quick. So people like the guy who sold the Westy just done want them anymore, and a reasonable bid will get them.
Just remembered another guy in our club who bought a Tiget Cat E1 for £1,000, hardly used and visually tidy with a Pinto in. Greenwood above knows him too. That is an exception granted, but you £5k is a fair budget in this climate. I'd be looking at a Westfield, Tiger, Sylva or MK at that money.
The cheapest Westfield I know of was bought by my mate for £2,400... A yellow 'carbed 1600 CVH car. As the Westfield owners forum was debating what must be wrong with it my friend was zooming up th M1 to the guys house with a trailer in tow. He spent £300 MoT'ing it and took it to the Alps with us, 2,500 miles in 10 days. Apart from a dodgy ECU connector it ran faultlessly. Then he sold it on for about £4k.
My point is there are some real bargains out there to be had, if you keep a wad of cash handy and keep your eat to the ground and get in quick. So people like the guy who sold the Westy just done want them anymore, and a reasonable bid will get them.
Just remembered another guy in our club who bought a Tiget Cat E1 for £1,000, hardly used and visually tidy with a Pinto in. Greenwood above knows him too. That is an exception granted, but you £5k is a fair budget in this climate. I'd be looking at a Westfield, Tiger, Sylva or MK at that money.
My point is there are some real bargains out there to be had, if you keep a wad of cash handy and keep your eat to the ground and get in quick. So people like the guy who sold the Westy just done want them anymore, and a reasonable bid will get them.
Just remembered another guy in our club who bought a Tiget Cat E1 for £1,000, hardly used and visually tidy with a Pinto in. Greenwood above knows him too. That is an exception granted, but you £5k is a fair budget in this climate. I'd be looking at a Westfield, Tiger, Sylva or MK at that money.
How about something like this...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sylva-Fury-Kit-Car-/2906...
Tidy it up this winter. Use it next year and then upgrade the engine to whatever you fancy next winter.
Like Lee says, there's some bargains to be had if you're quick off the mark. The car above sold for £1500 last year, was tidied up and tested, then sold on to the current owner.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sylva-Fury-Kit-Car-/2906...
Tidy it up this winter. Use it next year and then upgrade the engine to whatever you fancy next winter.
Like Lee says, there's some bargains to be had if you're quick off the mark. The car above sold for £1500 last year, was tidied up and tested, then sold on to the current owner.
greengreenwood7 said:
Sorry Steffan dont agree with the advice re/ sierra underpinnings - brakes/suspension, for most ppl thats not really an issue: sierra brakes will easily stop a 600-700kg car, and teh suspension whatever its off is all about being set up in a sensible/reasonable manner. Cant see the OP's post now i've started to type this, but dont think he was necessarily looking to be doing loads of track work.
Bit of a red herring I think. Sierra stuff is fine for track work - check out Duncan Cowper's old Dax for example.the sylva looks not too bad...dont worry about body or paintwork...normally they arent too bad....the chassis must be spot on...and it looks very good from what i could see on the enginebay picture.
should be in a region of 2500 to 3500...not more...anything else is overpriced.
good thing is: you dont have any people from outside UK bidding up the price...as the reg-date is too young!!!!
and most important: dont focus your search on ebay....as ebay is mostly a lie.
from 100sales i´m sure 80sales have been manipulated (to achieve higher prices) by bids of friends, 2nd accounts or whatever
should be in a region of 2500 to 3500...not more...anything else is overpriced.
good thing is: you dont have any people from outside UK bidding up the price...as the reg-date is too young!!!!
and most important: dont focus your search on ebay....as ebay is mostly a lie.
from 100sales i´m sure 80sales have been manipulated (to achieve higher prices) by bids of friends, 2nd accounts or whatever
Edited by Comadis on Tuesday 25th October 18:22
Four Litre said:
Cheers all - My bro also said to avoid Robin Hoods.... Will let the search continue.
Will be back when I've found the one!
Why I ask do you need to avoid the RobinHood?ok it is not and never will be a LOcateraxfeild be cause it is a much lower priced proposittion any way and to build requires a greater level of mech knowledge to build correctly but there are alot ofRH drivers who are v/happy with their cars out there ,Will be back when I've found the one!
I have seen some of the vuanted others that were far worse ,than many RH Cars the main problems people with little of the most UNCOMMONsense .Please buy what you fancy,but I think you would be better with 5K 's woth of well built RH than %K worth of vtired caterham needing5/6 K spending on it as always not everyone will agree esp if they have bottomless pockets
The Black Flash said:
Bit of a red herring I think. Sierra stuff is fine for track work - check out Duncan Cowper's old Dax for example.And using cut-down Sierra front uprights isn't the best, as the basic geometry was intended to work with MacPherson struts and often isn't ideal when modified for use with double wishbones (steering axis is all wrong).
one eyed mick said:
Why I ask do you need to avoid the RobinHood? ...I think you would be better with 5K 's worth of well built RH than %K worth of vtired caterham needing 5/6 K spending on it...
I think the point is that £5K will buy you a well-built Westfield SE or Sylva/Fisher, which are much more competently designed cars (and incidentally, it's easier to build a nice Westfield or Sylva, as the basic quality of the kit was better, so you're more likely to come across one than a nicely built R**** H***.If the choice was limited to a really nice, well-built R**** H*** or a s
tty wreck of a Sylva for £2.5K, then it might be a different matter, but the amount of time and effort R**** H*** owners need to expend to create a 'well built' car mean that they are seldom that realistic about their cars' value...Sorry, but I simply couldn't bring myself to entertain a £5K second-hand R**** H***, no matter how well built it was - there are quite simply much better options on the market.
a robin hood looks like a seven but is so far away from a proper seven design as the titanic from an airplane!!!
the robin hood is so cheap because everything on it is cheap: the construction, the materials, the suspension desgin, the builders, the owners.....etc...its cr*p!!!
the vague robin constructions leaves a lot to the builders, but the typical robin-builder has wether the skills, nor the tools or space to built such a car properly and eliminate the design weaknesses of the constructors.
also most robins for sale have a heavy (stainless) steel monocoque, sierra suspension (taken over 1:1 in major parts)...whereas a typical seven has a spaceframe (tubular) chassis, which is,lighter, sturdier, better....a proper suspension layout with proper wishbones....its too complicate to expalin all the details and pro´s / con´s .
the robin hood is so cheap because everything on it is cheap: the construction, the materials, the suspension desgin, the builders, the owners.....etc...its cr*p!!!
the vague robin constructions leaves a lot to the builders, but the typical robin-builder has wether the skills, nor the tools or space to built such a car properly and eliminate the design weaknesses of the constructors.
also most robins for sale have a heavy (stainless) steel monocoque, sierra suspension (taken over 1:1 in major parts)...whereas a typical seven has a spaceframe (tubular) chassis, which is,lighter, sturdier, better....a proper suspension layout with proper wishbones....its too complicate to expalin all the details and pro´s / con´s .
Edited by Comadis on Tuesday 1st November 09:59
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