Making Britain Great Again - AKA Political Revolution

[Marf]

Before I start, let me say that this is as much me thinking aloud as it is me stating what I think could be done to empower us as a nation once more and differentiate ourselves from the united states of europe.

It seems clear to me that the Left/Right paradigm is no longer a viable structure in which to frame our political system and is in fact detrimental to our future as a nation.

There are social structures which I feel are sacred, such as the NHS, however existing on benefit has become far too prevalent as a life path.

The EU costs us a large bag of gold to be a part of, whilst strangling us with regulation and flooding our labour market with cheap labour excaserbating the welfare issue.

Our natural oil and gas resources are working to the benefit of private enterprise rather than the good of the nation.


So as a starting point:-

• Leave the EU, free trade fine, but political union, no GTFO. We've ruled ourselves quite happily before, its time that became a reality again.

• Allow only skilled immigration where needed, full stop. No blanket movement of labour. Give EU citizens one year to wrap up their affairs and leave or apply to become British Citizens where their skills make it an attractive prospect to keep them.

• Reform the benefits system, leave as is for one year then start to reduce benefits in the hope that the jobs freed up by point 2 allow our indigenous benefits claimaints to find work and start to better themselves. Work towards requiring some form of state sanctioned labour in exchange for benefits, i.e. stop using private companies to do stuff like bin collection, ground maintenance etc etc.

• Nationalise oil and gas - look at Norway and their oil funded sovereign wealth fund

• Make it more attractive for business to come here and for citizens to start businesses, ditch H&S, slash corporation taxes and income taxes. Reduce VAT. Simplify planning laws.

• Ditch the HRA - replace it with a sensible national civil bill of rights.

• Involve citizens in politics - along the lines of the swiss model of petitions leading to referenda.

Now, I'm sure this might rile up a few people on both sides of the political coin, but let me say that this is just coming off the top of my head. I'm trying to promote a discussion here, not make a concrete statement of what is 100% the best thing for us as a nation.

Over to you

[Eric Mc]

Who is the "we" you are referring to in all this?

If you mean the United Kingdom - then you will find that the various elements that make up the UK hold extremely different views on EU membership.

If you mean "England", you will find that views even around England vary quite a bit too.

If "England" chose to leave the EU (which it cannot do as it has no separate voting auuthority under the current constitutional set-up), you would probably be doing the opposite of making Britain "Great" (which, is not, of course, the correct meaning of "Great Britain),. you would be precipitating the disintegration of the UK (which is perhaps happening anyway).

If you are prepared to hang on a bit, the EU may self destruct of its own accord anyway.

[Marf]

I mean we as in, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. RoI has it's opinion of the EU cemented already.

[Eric Mc]

Marf said:

I mean we as in, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. RoI has it's opinion of the EU cemented already.

I didn't mention the Republic of Ireland at all. It has nothing to do with the UK.

England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales make up the United Kingdom.
England, Scotland and Wales make up Great Britain.

My point is that I would expect Scotland, and Wales in particular to be almost definitely pro-EU. There may even be regions of England that are pro-EU.

If a large ENGLISH vote was against the EU but the remainder of the UK constituent countries voted pro-EU, I could only see the end of the UK and probably Great Britain as the final outcome.

[Marf]

OK poor choice of thread title, point taken

As for Wales and Scotland being pro-EU, if they are indeed so pro-EU, do you feel they view union with England to be more important than union with Europe?

i.e. Why have they not successfully ended their union with us and jumped feet first into bed with the EU ala the RoI?

[johnfm]

Weren't British Gas, British Rail and British Leyland all a bit crap.

Why would British Oil work?

The state cannot run a piss up in a brewery.

[Marf]

johnfm said:

Weren't British Gas, British Rail and British Leyland all a bit crap.

Why would British Oil work?

It's an interesting point, why did they fail so badly in the past and why is Statoil(norway state oil co) succesful by comparison?

[FourWheelDrift]

As little as possible needs to state funded or state run. State run departments and industries are about means not ends. Activity not production.

Losing the massive financial drain that is the NHS would save billions currently wasted.

[Eric Mc]

FourWheelDrift said:

As little as possible needs to state funded or state run. State run departments and industries are about means not ends. Activity not production.

Losing the massive financial drain that is the NHS would save billions currently wasted.

Do the majority of British people want this? The general view is that the NHS is pretty sacrosanct and untouchable.

[MX7]

I think the largest impovement that could happen would be if we learnt how to run nationalsed industries in this country. Nationalised gas, elecrticity, water, trains and buses would benefit everyone if they were run effeciently on a non profit basis. Some chance of it actually happening though.

[Marf]

Eric Mc said:

FourWheelDrift said:

As little as possible needs to state funded or state run. State run departments and industries are about means not ends. Activity not production.

Losing the massive financial drain that is the NHS would save billions currently wasted.

Do the majority of British people want this? The general view is that the NHS is pretty sacrosanct and untouchable.

Sacrosanct, yes. Untouchable? No. It certainly needs reform, less bean counters and managers etc.

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

I think the largest impovement that could happen would be if we learnt how to run nationalsed industries in this country. Nationalised gas, elecrticity, water, trains and buses would benefit everyone if they were run effeciently on a non profit basis. Some chance of it actually happening though.

+ 1. The managers/transparency today far better than in the 60's, 70's so there is hope that it would work out OK.

[Eric Mc]

Marf said:

Eric Mc said:

FourWheelDrift said:

As little as possible needs to state funded or state run. State run departments and industries are about means not ends. Activity not production.

Losing the massive financial drain that is the NHS would save billions currently wasted.

Do the majority of British people want this? The general view is that the NHS is pretty sacrosanct and untouchable.

Sacrosanct, yes. Untouchable? No. It certainly needs reform, less bean counters and managers etc.

The NHS has been in a constant state of reform since about 1970. That's part of the problem.

[Marf]

Eric Mc said:

Marf said:

Eric Mc said:

FourWheelDrift said:

As little as possible needs to state funded or state run. State run departments and industries are about means not ends. Activity not production.

Losing the massive financial drain that is the NHS would save billions currently wasted.

Do the majority of British people want this? The general view is that the NHS is pretty sacrosanct and untouchable.

Sacrosanct, yes. Untouchable? No. It certainly needs reform, less bean counters and managers etc.

The NHS has been in a constant state of reform since about 1970. That's part of the problem.

So how would you proceed? Put a stop on any organisational changes for a set time frame in order to concretely identify possible areas for reform?

[Eric Mc]

Marf said:

So how would you proceed? Put a stop on any organisational changes for a set time frame in order to concretely identify possible areas for reform?

That would be a start. Stability works wonders. Change costs - constant change costs constantly - as well as causing disruption and loss of morale.

[cardigankid]

The reason that the NHS is 'untouchable' is because it is not socially acceptable to criticise doctors and nurses. Pay them a fortune, yes, accept second rate service, yes, accept arrogant attitude, yes, but not criticise them.

A lot of what you say is well worth considering, and might do a great deal of good, but it is one thing to say it and another to put it into effect.

By the way, our last attempt to nationalise the oil industry (BNOC, run by our old mate Tony Benn) indeed nationalise any industry, was not a glowing success. We have now nationalised the Banks, and look how well that is going.

Not sure what the bloke who took issue with your grammar was about. It was patently clear what you meant. The UK is in the EU, the UK can come out, not individual bits. Actually, I do not think that we should come out of the EU, but I do think that the leadership of the EU has got totally out of touch with reality, and the organisation needs a root and branch shake up. And also needs to be scrutinised by a competent accountant.

Eric? How about you. Here's a guy wants to make Britain 'Great' again. I think it is only fair to ask him what exactly he means by that.

[Eric Mc]

I don't see anyone criticising grammar anywhere on this thread. But I did spot that the OP was somehow dragging a non-UK country into the debate - which he has admitted he did in error.

Part of the NHS problems stem from the hierarchy of the various staff categories within the system - in particular the role of the senior consultants and perhaps teh atitude of nursing staff - followed by an over reliance on management - many who find it difficult to control the senior consultants.

Sitr Gerry Robinson's TV programme on the NHS a few years ago was very revealing.

[Marf]

cardigankid said:

A lot of what you say is well worth considering, and might do a great deal of good, but it is one thing to say it and another to put it into effect.

Oh I agree entirely, hence the use of the word revolution in the thread title. Much of what I suggest would need a seachange in opinion of both the political and non political classes, as well as casting off the shackles of PC.

[Eric Mc]

No point in revolting unless you have a clear idea about what you want to replace the outgoing system with.

And what type of revolution are you talking about? A violent revolution or a constitutional revolution?
Are you talking about setting up a new type of political party? Are any of the current parties capable of taking on a revolutionary agenda?

[anonymous-user]

i think the most useful thing to do would be to move to a more representative democracy. I would put a size limit on political parties or perhaps ban parliamentary candidates from being part of a party altogether.