Discussion
I've been away from the shooting world for about five years, but have decided to get back into it again. I'm going to need a good dog, and have been considering a couple of different breeds. I really fancied a German Wire Haired pointer, but a friend has told me some nightmare stories about training them, so the next in line is a Flat Coat Retriever. I went to see a breeder today, and was very impressed with her dogs.
I have seen these dogs working in the past, but would appreciate any comments from anyone on here who has had experience of working them. I will be using it for some rough shooting, picking up, wildfowling, and some driven days.
I have seen these dogs working in the past, but would appreciate any comments from anyone on here who has had experience of working them. I will be using it for some rough shooting, picking up, wildfowling, and some driven days.
If you're looking at wildfowling, I'd have thought that the flat coated retreiver would be a much better option.
My experience of the various Pointer breeds (and Weimeraners) is that they'd be a complete and utter dead loss for wildfowling: send them to retrieve a duck in water and they'll most likely just look at you with an expression that says "you cannot be serious? You shot it, you go get wet!".
Water dogs, they are not...
My experience of the various Pointer breeds (and Weimeraners) is that they'd be a complete and utter dead loss for wildfowling: send them to retrieve a duck in water and they'll most likely just look at you with an expression that says "you cannot be serious? You shot it, you go get wet!".
Water dogs, they are not...
Sam_68 said:
If you're looking at wildfowling, I'd have thought that the flat coated retreiver would be a much better option.
My experience of the various Pointer breeds (and Weimeraners) is that they'd be a complete and utter dead loss for wildfowling: send them to retrieve a duck in water and they'll most likely just look at you with an expression that says "you cannot be serious? You shot it, you go get wet!".
Water dogs, they are not...
agreed, they don't like going through the rough eitherMy experience of the various Pointer breeds (and Weimeraners) is that they'd be a complete and utter dead loss for wildfowling: send them to retrieve a duck in water and they'll most likely just look at you with an expression that says "you cannot be serious? You shot it, you go get wet!".
Water dogs, they are not...
great dogs, just not so great as gun dogs imo
Reference my friends pointer, I think it was just a case of the dog needing a lot of intensive training, and even then it wasn't that good in the field. He had previously had Labradors, but fancied a change. I think he was expecting a pointer to be as responsive as his other dogs, but I think they do need more training. I gather that as a breed, if you get a good one, they are brilliant. Otherwise they can be hard work.
For my purposes, I think a Flatcoat is going be a better bet.
For my purposes, I think a Flatcoat is going be a better bet.
In my experience one of the larger springers would be the best all rounder.
They might struggle a bit for estuarine goose shooting but will manage.(Been there)
It would be perfect for all the other types of shooting.
Labs and particularly retrievers are poor workers in cover compared to a springer.
GSPs, Weimars etc are pretty hopeless all rounders and usually have jaws like gin-traps.
They might struggle a bit for estuarine goose shooting but will manage.(Been there)
It would be perfect for all the other types of shooting.
Labs and particularly retrievers are poor workers in cover compared to a springer.
GSPs, Weimars etc are pretty hopeless all rounders and usually have jaws like gin-traps.
Yep, Springers are good all-rounders (we've got one), but I'd still be inclined to go for something a bit bigger for wildfowling - as you say, they'll struggle a bit with bigger birds, in some environments.
If you want something a bit off-beat, have a look at some of the breeds on this list, maybe?
If you want something a bit off-beat, have a look at some of the breeds on this list, maybe?
I have a Flattie although we don't work her.
Crazy as a box of frogs! Selective hearing and slow to mature. (Love her to bits!)
The guys I meet with gundogs all tell me that Flatcoats are quite different to train than say a Springer. Flatcoats don't tolerate harsh training and bore pretty quickly too. As they don't mature till about 3 years old they can be slower to train than other gundogs, and a bit less predictable too!
Crazy as a box of frogs! Selective hearing and slow to mature. (Love her to bits!)
The guys I meet with gundogs all tell me that Flatcoats are quite different to train than say a Springer. Flatcoats don't tolerate harsh training and bore pretty quickly too. As they don't mature till about 3 years old they can be slower to train than other gundogs, and a bit less predictable too!
n_const said:
strange , my Weimaraner loves water and mud lol and will dive through puddles,rivers the lot !
Mine too. It's harder to get him out of the water than get him in. He regularly swims the best part of a mile down a local res' as fast as I can walk. He hammers through heather and bracken but his favorite is snowdrifts at full speed.The only terrain that fazes him is bramble but he doesn't have a lot of protection.
There is a good article in last months 'The Field' about the pros and cons of the various breeds and The Shooting Times website has loads of info on it too. I've got Cockers which are great little dogs, bold as brass, keen and seriously enthusiastic about work. Big enough to pig a decent Cock Pheasant or Mallard just, but would struggle with anything bigger, a Springer would be fine on Duck but might struggle with Goose, depends on the line and head size I suppose.
A Vizla might be a possibility - quite a good all-round dog. We've got a GWP as well but in all honesty she's not a general shooting dog, but she's a great stalking dog. She covers too much ground too quickly for general game shooting really. An English Pointer might be worth thinking about, or the common but common for a reason Lab - its a good all-rounder if you want to pick up!
A Vizla might be a possibility - quite a good all-round dog. We've got a GWP as well but in all honesty she's not a general shooting dog, but she's a great stalking dog. She covers too much ground too quickly for general game shooting really. An English Pointer might be worth thinking about, or the common but common for a reason Lab - its a good all-rounder if you want to pick up!
TimCrighton said:
I've got Cockers which are great little dogs.
Ah! Another cocker man. 
An experienced cocker can retrieve geese and brown hares ( 50% of their bodyweight!) but not recommended.
I have never seen any of the "exotics" do a decent day's work out of their own specialist enviroment.
As TimCrighton said springers and labs are common for a reason, they are good at what they do.
Springer over lab every time IMO as an all-rounder.
Edited by tenex on Friday 28th October 20:27
Spaniels and Labs are so popular for good reason. We have a lovely little cocker b
h that is so bright and energetic. If you want something a little niche what about an Irish Water Spaniel, hilarious to look at if useless in the field.
I hate the "mad spaniel" tag they sometimes get. They are just highly intelligent and if trained to do what they are bred for are perfect, steady gundogs. Keep a spaniel in a city with little garden and it will go mad!
h that is so bright and energetic. If you want something a little niche what about an Irish Water Spaniel, hilarious to look at if useless in the field.I hate the "mad spaniel" tag they sometimes get. They are just highly intelligent and if trained to do what they are bred for are perfect, steady gundogs. Keep a spaniel in a city with little garden and it will go mad!
If you want something a little bit different have a look at Tollers (Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers) http://www.petplanet.co.uk/dog_breed_profile.asp?d... a friend of mine has a couple and they are lovely dogs, she doesn't work hers but they are trained to retrieve dummies and are fantastic dogs. They really will retrieve for hours on end - much to the amusement of our Springer who never really understood why she might want to go and fetch something that someone else might have thrown and doesn't understand why these ginger dogs might want to!
Lovely temperament and fantastic in the water but also in the undergrown.
My friend is in the Midlands but I imagine she could put you in touch with someone more local to you if you were interested.
Lovely temperament and fantastic in the water but also in the undergrown.
My friend is in the Midlands but I imagine she could put you in touch with someone more local to you if you were interested.
Some interesting comments re different breeds. They all have their own pluses and minuses.
Will your dog be a family companion also I wonder? If so that's worth baring in mind. I see my fair share of working line dogs (say labs, cockers or Springers come to mind) that live in a home but are hard work as they operate at a high mental level all the time and find it hard to settle unless they are truly worked and exercised adequately. Just a thought.
I own my second wire-haired vizsla and I wondered if the dense coat and general gun dog skills might fit the bill? My boy Max has a very tight coat and is not very wiry (which suits me well). My old gal now departed was in comparison really quite shaggy, so coats vary. They are markedly bigger than regular vizslas as they were crossed with GWP's back in the 30's. As I understand it this was to deal specifically with dense undercover.
Love flatcoats, and in fact we were close to getting one 2 yrs ago, but Max my Wire came up so I plumbed for a known breed.
At risk of selling the breed too much, I cannot speak highly enough of the innate temperament of the Wire-Haired Vizslas. They need plenty of exercise and no harsh training methods, but they also reward big time as pets.
Amber my first girl was an excellent all round worker, but still no contest for a Springer in dense cover looking for shot and missing game. Max my 2 yr old boy is not as driven to work as Amber was, but that is a more due to the fact that he's not had as much input as my first dog did. Max has an awesome nose on him and he tracks like a hound nose down - amazing to watch. He's an advanced truffle hunter
So I would say keeping looking and talking about it and something will most likely come up that makes your mind up for you. We love our gun dog breeds in this family, and had an actual list with various pros and cons of each breed. We went to a few shows to look at flat coats too and were very close to getting one. Shows can be a good place to see your intended breed as it gives you a good hands on experience. Crufts in March of course. Sooner you have discover dogs in mid Nov at Earls Court. http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk/
A bit of a ramble in places sorry, but thought I'd talk about my own breed of preference as it may suit you.
You can see quite a few shots of Max on my Twitter feed, but Twitpic images are here: http://twitpic.com/77kw78 I took him cycling yesterday!
Good luck.
Nick
Will your dog be a family companion also I wonder? If so that's worth baring in mind. I see my fair share of working line dogs (say labs, cockers or Springers come to mind) that live in a home but are hard work as they operate at a high mental level all the time and find it hard to settle unless they are truly worked and exercised adequately. Just a thought.
I own my second wire-haired vizsla and I wondered if the dense coat and general gun dog skills might fit the bill? My boy Max has a very tight coat and is not very wiry (which suits me well). My old gal now departed was in comparison really quite shaggy, so coats vary. They are markedly bigger than regular vizslas as they were crossed with GWP's back in the 30's. As I understand it this was to deal specifically with dense undercover.
Love flatcoats, and in fact we were close to getting one 2 yrs ago, but Max my Wire came up so I plumbed for a known breed.
At risk of selling the breed too much, I cannot speak highly enough of the innate temperament of the Wire-Haired Vizslas. They need plenty of exercise and no harsh training methods, but they also reward big time as pets.
Amber my first girl was an excellent all round worker, but still no contest for a Springer in dense cover looking for shot and missing game. Max my 2 yr old boy is not as driven to work as Amber was, but that is a more due to the fact that he's not had as much input as my first dog did. Max has an awesome nose on him and he tracks like a hound nose down - amazing to watch. He's an advanced truffle hunter
So I would say keeping looking and talking about it and something will most likely come up that makes your mind up for you. We love our gun dog breeds in this family, and had an actual list with various pros and cons of each breed. We went to a few shows to look at flat coats too and were very close to getting one. Shows can be a good place to see your intended breed as it gives you a good hands on experience. Crufts in March of course. Sooner you have discover dogs in mid Nov at Earls Court. http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk/
A bit of a ramble in places sorry, but thought I'd talk about my own breed of preference as it may suit you.
You can see quite a few shots of Max on my Twitter feed, but Twitpic images are here: http://twitpic.com/77kw78 I took him cycling yesterday!
Good luck.
Nick
nick_j007 said:
Some interesting comments re different breeds. They all have their own pluses and minuses.
Will your dog be a family companion also I wonder? If so that's worth baring in mind. I see my fair share of working line dogs (say labs, cockers or Springers come to mind) that live in a home but are hard work as they operate at a high mental level all the time and find it hard to settle unless they are truly worked and exercised adequately. Just a thought.
I own my second wire-haired vizsla and I wondered if the dense coat and general gun dog skills might fit the bill? My boy Max has a very tight coat and is not very wiry (which suits me well). My old gal now departed was in comparison really quite shaggy, so coats vary. They are markedly bigger than regular vizslas as they were crossed with GWP's back in the 30's. As I understand it this was to deal specifically with dense undercover.
Love flatcoats, and in fact we were close to getting one 2 yrs ago, but Max my Wire came up so I plumbed for a known breed.
At risk of selling the breed too much, I cannot speak highly enough of the innate temperament of the Wire-Haired Vizslas. They need plenty of exercise and no harsh training methods, but they also reward big time as pets.
Amber my first girl was an excellent all round worker, but still no contest for a Springer in dense cover looking for shot and missing game. Max my 2 yr old boy is not as driven to work as Amber was, but that is a more due to the fact that he's not had as much input as my first dog did. Max has an awesome nose on him and he tracks like a hound nose down - amazing to watch. He's an advanced truffle hunter
So I would say keeping looking and talking about it and something will most likely come up that makes your mind up for you. We love our gun dog breeds in this family, and had an actual list with various pros and cons of each breed. We went to a few shows to look at flat coats too and were very close to getting one. Shows can be a good place to see your intended breed as it gives you a good hands on experience. Crufts in March of course. Sooner you have discover dogs in mid Nov at Earls Court. http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk/
A bit of a ramble in places sorry, but thought I'd talk about my own breed of preference as it may suit you.
You can see quite a few shots of Max on my Twitter feed, but Twitpic images are here: http://twitpic.com/77kw78 I took him cycling yesterday!
Good luck.
Nick
Thanks for that Nick. Yes, the dog will also be a family pet, but will be spending a lot of time with me as I am about to take early retirement. I will therefore be able to spend most of my time with it, and will be doing a lot of training.Will your dog be a family companion also I wonder? If so that's worth baring in mind. I see my fair share of working line dogs (say labs, cockers or Springers come to mind) that live in a home but are hard work as they operate at a high mental level all the time and find it hard to settle unless they are truly worked and exercised adequately. Just a thought.
I own my second wire-haired vizsla and I wondered if the dense coat and general gun dog skills might fit the bill? My boy Max has a very tight coat and is not very wiry (which suits me well). My old gal now departed was in comparison really quite shaggy, so coats vary. They are markedly bigger than regular vizslas as they were crossed with GWP's back in the 30's. As I understand it this was to deal specifically with dense undercover.
Love flatcoats, and in fact we were close to getting one 2 yrs ago, but Max my Wire came up so I plumbed for a known breed.
At risk of selling the breed too much, I cannot speak highly enough of the innate temperament of the Wire-Haired Vizslas. They need plenty of exercise and no harsh training methods, but they also reward big time as pets.
Amber my first girl was an excellent all round worker, but still no contest for a Springer in dense cover looking for shot and missing game. Max my 2 yr old boy is not as driven to work as Amber was, but that is a more due to the fact that he's not had as much input as my first dog did. Max has an awesome nose on him and he tracks like a hound nose down - amazing to watch. He's an advanced truffle hunter
So I would say keeping looking and talking about it and something will most likely come up that makes your mind up for you. We love our gun dog breeds in this family, and had an actual list with various pros and cons of each breed. We went to a few shows to look at flat coats too and were very close to getting one. Shows can be a good place to see your intended breed as it gives you a good hands on experience. Crufts in March of course. Sooner you have discover dogs in mid Nov at Earls Court. http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk/
A bit of a ramble in places sorry, but thought I'd talk about my own breed of preference as it may suit you.
You can see quite a few shots of Max on my Twitter feed, but Twitpic images are here: http://twitpic.com/77kw78 I took him cycling yesterday!
Good luck.
Nick
I know what you mean about the other breeds, a lot of which I have always wanted, but I'm having to take input from the rest of the family. A flatcoat is presently top of the list.
I used to have a GWP, a harder dog you'll not find. They go all day and never ever tire and will tackle anything in their stride in order to please you. However they can be very very hard work to train, they are very stuborn, learn very quickly ( bad habbits quicker than good) Can be very aloof, 50% of people he just wouldnt have anything to do with. They are very sesnitive so you have to bare this i nmind when correcting them and you do that alot - single command, if they havent complied in 5 seconds then correct.
I now have two GSP's, simillar but are easier to live with. All of the above still applies but to a lesser degree also they are more people dogs they love everyone.
Re GWP's speak with Maxine or Peter maculloch (spelling) Kimmax kennels the only british breeders of true deusch drathar - GWP's that have passed the german breeding hunting tests.
When I was young my dad used to have sandringham labradors - good but they only really retrieve and thus not as versatile as a HPR dog.
edited to add that my young GSP (5 months old) was steadier than a guys 12 year old springer.
Edited again to add that if you have a HPR you'll have to get used to a lot of people looking down their noses at you as if you drive a Tata. You'll have the last laugh though as you wont lose your voice have to keep blowing your whistle and shouting back, back, back, to get it to retrieve.
I now have two GSP's, simillar but are easier to live with. All of the above still applies but to a lesser degree also they are more people dogs they love everyone.
Re GWP's speak with Maxine or Peter maculloch (spelling) Kimmax kennels the only british breeders of true deusch drathar - GWP's that have passed the german breeding hunting tests.
When I was young my dad used to have sandringham labradors - good but they only really retrieve and thus not as versatile as a HPR dog.
edited to add that my young GSP (5 months old) was steadier than a guys 12 year old springer.
Edited again to add that if you have a HPR you'll have to get used to a lot of people looking down their noses at you as if you drive a Tata. You'll have the last laugh though as you wont lose your voice have to keep blowing your whistle and shouting back, back, back, to get it to retrieve.
Edited by boy on Tuesday 1st November 07:47
boy on Tuesday 1st November 07:47Edited by boy on Tuesday 1st November 08:04
boy on Tuesday 1st November 08:04Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff