Gaydon Supercar Sunday
Discussion
I went along today with GTRCLIVE and ANDYCANAM and the crew. Stig's GTR, Paul Buck's Spyder and mine were the only Ultima's there, but is was a good day out and many exotica was present.
Chris entered the best Supercar competition to put Ultima on the podium and came second out of four, but his Ultima was pitched against a Lambo Muircelago, some TVR and a newish Porsche Cabrio which we all thought was a good result considering the judging was done on crowd applause by mostly non technical people who had no idea of what the Ultima was capable of. We think the Lambo possibly won it becasue of the lovely candy flip orange paint which drew crowds as it was probably the prettiest car there. We thought if Chris had similar paint he would have won; which kinda shows the weakness in a competition like that. You have to see that colour in the flesh - its bloody marvelous.
Sadly I took the wrong memory type for the wrong camera so I was unable to take any pictures. Clive and I took some in-car footage on the fly, but for self-incriminating reasons we can't put that up here either
Despite the showers it was a good day out and I hope to have some pictures to post from some other PH friends once I receive them.
Chris entered the best Supercar competition to put Ultima on the podium and came second out of four, but his Ultima was pitched against a Lambo Muircelago, some TVR and a newish Porsche Cabrio which we all thought was a good result considering the judging was done on crowd applause by mostly non technical people who had no idea of what the Ultima was capable of. We think the Lambo possibly won it becasue of the lovely candy flip orange paint which drew crowds as it was probably the prettiest car there. We thought if Chris had similar paint he would have won; which kinda shows the weakness in a competition like that. You have to see that colour in the flesh - its bloody marvelous.
Sadly I took the wrong memory type for the wrong camera so I was unable to take any pictures. Clive and I took some in-car footage on the fly, but for self-incriminating reasons we can't put that up here either
Despite the showers it was a good day out and I hope to have some pictures to post from some other PH friends once I receive them.Yep, great day out! got a bit damp on the way there, but glad that my road tax bought so may bridges on the M40. We sat under each one for 10 mins!!
Also coming back on the M25 in traffic with a golf brolly up during a downpour gained a bit of attention!
The Soundoff was the best bit... my two drainpipes seemed to win the day! Did think the lambo was coolest.. they are very cool cars.. but 2nd was fair!
Also coming back on the M25 in traffic with a golf brolly up during a downpour gained a bit of attention!
The Soundoff was the best bit... my two drainpipes seemed to win the day! Did think the lambo was coolest.. they are very cool cars.. but 2nd was fair!
Glad you got back in one piece Paul! Good to meet you at last.
I thought it was a fair result given the competition. Btw. we didn't 'enter' the comp. as such, 4 cars were selected by the judges from all the exotica on display - I was happy enough to be selected! At least we can all be smug at the fact that we haven't paid 170k for our 'Supercars'
The bloke who owned the Murcielago was a great guy, very down to earth. The organisers and Mr. Berry told us later that they all wanted the Ultima to win, but the public get what the public wants
We almost swapped the prizes as the Lambo owner wanted the DB9 factory tour more than the blueprint picture
Looking forward to it.
The other great part of the day was that my car is running like a dream. High tickover problem has been solved, cooling is good as gold and the car is going like stink. There are days where the GTR drives me mad and days where I absolutely love it. Needless to say, I love it
I've got some pics (I think) and will try and post later.
I thought it was a fair result given the competition. Btw. we didn't 'enter' the comp. as such, 4 cars were selected by the judges from all the exotica on display - I was happy enough to be selected! At least we can all be smug at the fact that we haven't paid 170k for our 'Supercars'
The bloke who owned the Murcielago was a great guy, very down to earth. The organisers and Mr. Berry told us later that they all wanted the Ultima to win, but the public get what the public wants
We almost swapped the prizes as the Lambo owner wanted the DB9 factory tour more than the blueprint picture
Looking forward to it.
The other great part of the day was that my car is running like a dream. High tickover problem has been solved, cooling is good as gold and the car is going like stink. There are days where the GTR drives me mad and days where I absolutely love it. Needless to say, I love it
I've got some pics (I think) and will try and post later.
PLenty of pics here:
[url]www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=107034&f=65&h=0[/url]
The orange Murkylager LJ03LUD pipped us at the post
[url]www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=107034&f=65&h=0[/url]
The orange Murkylager LJ03LUD pipped us at the post
Crazy of Cookham said:
Great pics. Sorry to have missed this one. Stig your car looks great, have you been polishing that engine again.
To be honest, I've only ever cleaned it once and that was on Saturday!
Just sprayed on some aerosol gunk and washed off with plenty of warm soapy water. Job done
Stig said:
The other great part of the day was that my car is running like a dream. High tickover problem has been solved, cooling is good as gold and the car is going like stink. There are days where the GTR drives me mad and days where I absolutely love it. Needless to say, I love it
After almost three years of ownership, I've about reached that point as well. I absolutely love it at the moment. I have the confidence that it isn't going to let me down or kill me (touch large piece of wood now). To the extent that my extensive tool kit has been taken out of the side pod, and placed in its rightful place in my garage. But please tell me how you sorted out cooling issues?
YIIHAA said:Yeah, I'm all ears too - mine wasn't a happy bunny when we were stuck in traffic over in France.
But please tell me how you sorted out cooling issues?
I bumped into Ted & Richard in the circuit - they've sent me a different thermostat (although I don't see how that will make a difference on a long run). They also advised lowering the tickover (to 750) and richening the mixture a bit at tickover so it runs a bit cooler. They suggested this might also strengthen up the tickover a bit so it doesn't die with the aircon on.
Well, it's been a combination of things rather than one fix. To solve it I:
1) Removed grill behind rad fans
2) Uprated rad fans to Pacets with pull twice the capacity of air than the stock items
3) Fitted additional fan to oil cooler
4) Tried an electronic Davies Craig (bo-selecta!) water pump. Took it off again!
5) Used water wetter (no noticable difference)
6) Ceramically coated complete exhaust system
7) Thoroughly bled coolant system to remove any trace of an airlock
8) Realised that the position of the Stack temp sender on the block mean that it reads artificially high. Cost me 80 quid for an infra-red temp guage (which I now use for the race car tyre temps) but the difference across the rad is more than -10 degs.
9) Fan override switch for use when approaching slow traffic - although I rarely use it now.
10) Idle mix is eye wateringly rich, but does make a difference. May lean it off a bit now things are more under control.
I have to say, it may be that the more I fiddled with it, the more I ran in circles. Firstly, make absolutely sure that the system is properly bled and no airlocks are in the system. Open the heater valve fully, fill both the swirl pot AND overflow tank and run the car to temp. Don't worry about the overflow pushing out the excess onto the garage floor this will ensure the system finds its own level. You'd be surprised at how many cars (not just Ultimas) have problems which a proper bleed will cure!
Finally, remember that the guages are just a reading and it's easy to get jumpy when they get near the 'red zone'. Unless you're actually blowing water (not good) then you should be OK.
>> Edited by Stig on Tuesday 22 June 09:43
1) Removed grill behind rad fans
2) Uprated rad fans to Pacets with pull twice the capacity of air than the stock items
3) Fitted additional fan to oil cooler
4) Tried an electronic Davies Craig (bo-selecta!) water pump. Took it off again!
5) Used water wetter (no noticable difference)
6) Ceramically coated complete exhaust system
7) Thoroughly bled coolant system to remove any trace of an airlock
8) Realised that the position of the Stack temp sender on the block mean that it reads artificially high. Cost me 80 quid for an infra-red temp guage (which I now use for the race car tyre temps) but the difference across the rad is more than -10 degs.
9) Fan override switch for use when approaching slow traffic - although I rarely use it now.
10) Idle mix is eye wateringly rich, but does make a difference. May lean it off a bit now things are more under control.
I have to say, it may be that the more I fiddled with it, the more I ran in circles. Firstly, make absolutely sure that the system is properly bled and no airlocks are in the system. Open the heater valve fully, fill both the swirl pot AND overflow tank and run the car to temp. Don't worry about the overflow pushing out the excess onto the garage floor
this will ensure the system finds its own level. You'd be surprised at how many cars (not just Ultimas) have problems which a proper bleed will cure! Finally, remember that the guages are just a reading and it's easy to get jumpy when they get near the 'red zone'. Unless you're actually blowing water (not good) then you should be OK.
>> Edited by Stig on Tuesday 22 June 09:43
Bob - very close, within a couple of degrees of each other in fact.
The exception is on the track. The oil cooler is no way as efficient as the rad as it relies on negative pressure to draw air in past the vanes. A scoop may help? I'm working on a solution for this although relocating the cooler to the front of the car probably isn't an option!
I could drive slower I suppose?
....nah
The exception is on the track. The oil cooler is no way as efficient as the rad as it relies on negative pressure to draw air in past the vanes. A scoop may help? I'm working on a solution for this although relocating the cooler to the front of the car probably isn't an option!
I could drive slower I suppose?
....nah
Stig said:That's reassuring, although I don't have an oil cooler so my oil temp may be a bit higher - still tempted to fit an oil temp gauge. As you say, nowhere really to mount an oil cooler up front - unless you could squeeze one in front of the rad, but then you'd lose water cooling.
Bob - very close, within a couple of degrees of each other in fact.
The exception is on the track. The oil cooler is no way as efficient as the rad as it relies on negative pressure to draw air in past the vanes. A scoop may help? I'm working on a solution for this although relocating the cooler to the front of the car probably isn't an option!
I found cooling simpler, despite the smaller main rad and the air con rad in front of it. I had the same advice about running the engine at lower tickover (after overheating) and it makes all the difference. I can now run at about 700 rpm but dont have a hairy cam set up. I have the oil cooler but placed a 10" fan behind it to draw air through and shift in in the engine bay when in traffic. It got quite hot in Arnage but temperature didnt exceed 92, although this reads as 82 on my car which in itself is quite comforting. The other aspect is the water wetter which drops the temp by a couple of degrees.
ultiman said:I actually lowered my tickover and adjusted the mixture in the Maison Blanche car park (with attendant crowd of course
I had the same advice about running the engine at lower tickover (after overheating) and it makes all the difference. I can now run at about 700 rpm but dont have a hairy cam set up.
) before leaving after the race finish and the car was fine even when in traffic after that - still got up to about 90 but no more. The problem comes when trying to run the aircon as well as it pulls the tickover down ... I just ended up reaching quickly for the heater fan switch as soon as we were approaching traffic. I suppose EFI is the answer to that particular problem ...
Just to confirm what Stig said. We did more or less all what he listed and results are great for slow traffic, water and oil temperatures remain stable at about 80 deg. I suspect that the biggest contribution to that made the ceramic coating of the exhaust which is really amazing. And my tickover is now 1.200 due to the hotter cam and because I don´t want problems when switching on the air-con (revs drop by approx. 300). Also I don´t run it overly rich at tickover, according to my AFR meter around 13,5 which is pretty lean.
Just a word of warning to those who do not measure the oil temperature: At least with my new, hotter motor I had oil temperatures which are 30 deg. higher than water temps, if the car is driven fast. And the Small Block really suffers if oil temperatures are rising above 120 deg., I am told. Especially if you use mineral or semi-synt. oil, as recommeded by AS. I am using now W10-60 full synt. oil, which is much safer at higher temperatures and my oil consumption did not rise either, this being also in contrast to what is usually claimed (and my engine is still new, less than 1000 miles).
After dismantling the original AS engine this winter we found clear signs of damage due to overheating (mainly on bearings), and that was because I had no idea where the oil temperature was.
The main problem with the oil is that the oil cooler is not directly in the air stream and thus more or less useless. Adding a fan to the cooler does not really lower temperatures if the oil is hot but can create another problem because the ultra hot air is being blown on the fuel tank and other parts - so we had to completely heat insulate everything around the cooler. We are now looking for a real solution, but there is no space in the front therefore we must find some place in the back. One idea is collecting the air from below the car, if you have lowered floor pan there are some possibilities on the sides. Or above the gearbox between the mufflers? Most ideas mean cutting more holes into the Ultima which I do not like much... I would really appreciate all ideas on this issue, if you don´t want to post please send me a mail...
Peter
Just a word of warning to those who do not measure the oil temperature: At least with my new, hotter motor I had oil temperatures which are 30 deg. higher than water temps, if the car is driven fast. And the Small Block really suffers if oil temperatures are rising above 120 deg., I am told. Especially if you use mineral or semi-synt. oil, as recommeded by AS. I am using now W10-60 full synt. oil, which is much safer at higher temperatures and my oil consumption did not rise either, this being also in contrast to what is usually claimed (and my engine is still new, less than 1000 miles).
After dismantling the original AS engine this winter we found clear signs of damage due to overheating (mainly on bearings), and that was because I had no idea where the oil temperature was.
The main problem with the oil is that the oil cooler is not directly in the air stream and thus more or less useless. Adding a fan to the cooler does not really lower temperatures if the oil is hot but can create another problem because the ultra hot air is being blown on the fuel tank and other parts - so we had to completely heat insulate everything around the cooler. We are now looking for a real solution, but there is no space in the front therefore we must find some place in the back. One idea is collecting the air from below the car, if you have lowered floor pan there are some possibilities on the sides. Or above the gearbox between the mufflers? Most ideas mean cutting more holes into the Ultima which I do not like much... I would really appreciate all ideas on this issue, if you don´t want to post please send me a mail...
Peter
Just to add, I now have a stable tickover of about 800 rpm. Any less than this and your oil pressure will get pretty low which ain't great. 1200 is pretty high I'd say - but that's the downside of a 'hot' cam. That's why things are easier with the 'charger - milder cam, better idle characteristics (not to mention the glorious noise )
As Peter said, it's worth insulating the fuel tank face behind the coooler although the air doesn't become mega hot IMHO.
I still think the biggest issue for most is the trapped hot air under the canopy, I'll bet most of you will find if you open the canopy and leave the car on tickover it won't overheat - period.
Therefore, look for ways to either limit the heat disappated into the engine bay (ceramic coating) or find away of evacuating it (more vents, fans etc.).
I toyed with the idea of fitting evacuation fans to the rear grill to suck air from the engine bay, but the trick is to get them to take the hot air, not just draw it from the path of least resistance (which is what it would do). Same goes for fitting fans to the lower chassis members. Cool air would be dragged in forcing hot air out through the top scoop but I still thing more vents are needed for this to be effective.
An ideal scenario would be a big fan right at the top of the canopy - but it would be bloody ugly!
I talked to several CF manufacturers about making a pair of scoops which fit on either side of the main 'snail' hump, above the headers, which would take air in on the move and would help expel it when stationary. You could potentially fit fans to them too.
As I've said, I managed to solve it without anything this drastic - but, they could be done in a way that would look both aesthetically pleasing and efficient cooling wise.
) As Peter said, it's worth insulating the fuel tank face behind the coooler although the air doesn't become mega hot IMHO.
I still think the biggest issue for most is the trapped hot air under the canopy, I'll bet most of you will find if you open the canopy and leave the car on tickover it won't overheat - period.
Therefore, look for ways to either limit the heat disappated into the engine bay (ceramic coating) or find away of evacuating it (more vents, fans etc.).
I toyed with the idea of fitting evacuation fans to the rear grill to suck air from the engine bay, but the trick is to get them to take the hot air, not just draw it from the path of least resistance (which is what it would do). Same goes for fitting fans to the lower chassis members. Cool air would be dragged in forcing hot air out through the top scoop but I still thing more vents are needed for this to be effective.
An ideal scenario would be a big fan right at the top of the canopy - but it would be bloody ugly!
I talked to several CF manufacturers about making a pair of scoops which fit on either side of the main 'snail' hump, above the headers, which would take air in on the move and would help expel it when stationary. You could potentially fit fans to them too.
As I've said, I managed to solve it without anything this drastic - but, they could be done in a way that would look both aesthetically pleasing and efficient cooling wise.
Stig said:
I still think the biggest issue for most is the trapped hot air under the canopy, I'll bet most of you will find if you open the canopy and leave the car on tickover it won't overheat - period.
Leave the back open too long and you could damage the body with the exhaust because it'll exit right onto the underside of the body.
used to make my eye's water like crazy when I was playing with the idle and the back was open.
Burnt my GT40 Rear clip when breaking in the cam on a new engine with the rear clip open. It had heat matt on that aswell, so when running the engine with the clip open I used to rest a steel sheet over the end of the exhuast to direct the heat and gasses down. Just if you wanted to know.....
Off Topic, but Ult related :- Just heard my Parcel has left the US for Blighty. That's the Brodix Ported Track1 Heads and Jessel rocker Gear for my Next Ult, and AutoMeter gauges for my Mini. Christmas coming ealry again....
Off Topic, but Ult related :- Just heard my Parcel has left the US for Blighty. That's the Brodix Ported Track1 Heads and Jessel rocker Gear for my Next Ult, and AutoMeter gauges for my Mini. Christmas coming ealry again....
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