Noisy fuel pump problem, source found !
Discussion
As many on here who have been combatting the noisy fuel pump, trying to find the cause, and solutions etc..well not one to give up as i hate unwanted noises coming into the cabin, today i solved the problem and found what causes the fuel pumps to get noisy and it is a simple fix.
When the fuel pump first started getting noisy, i did all sorts of sound insulation/deadening, anti vibration to the side pod and sill and the stopped the noise coming into the cabin, then the noise got louder, so i followed suit with others to removing restrictions on the system, fuel return, modifying fuel tank with new outlet position, replacing ARV and changing fuel filter etc.. fuel filter had lots of metal shavings in it from when they first built the tank and the ARV was faulty both causing restrictions that were straining the fuel pump, but still the fuel pump was noisy.
So then i went one step further, modified the fuel tank again and moved the fuel pump out of the side pod and repositioned it under the fuel tank with lots of extra sound insulation to isolate it from the side pod and the cabin, not really problem sorted because it was still noisy its just i could not hear it anymore.
So this was ok for a few months until i started to hear the fuel pump buzz again, which can only have meant one thing, the problem was getting worse, so that prompted me to thinking that the problem with the fuel pump was degenerative.
So then i thought back and i did not remember the fuel pump being noisy when it was first installed, then it clicked, removing the restrictions did work, but the damage had already been done to the fuel pump and thats why it was still noisy, so today i put a new fuel pump, and it was completely quiet, i mean you literally can't hear it at all.
So in summary, everybody else that have carried out the derestrictions to the system, but still have a noisy fuel pump, simply put a new Bosch 44 and it is problem sorted,i am sure of it, and the problem should never occur again because the problems that were straining the fuel pump thus making it noisy have been fixed.
In turn if you put a new fuel pump without removing the restrictions then expect the problem to reoccur over time.
When the fuel pump first started getting noisy, i did all sorts of sound insulation/deadening, anti vibration to the side pod and sill and the stopped the noise coming into the cabin, then the noise got louder, so i followed suit with others to removing restrictions on the system, fuel return, modifying fuel tank with new outlet position, replacing ARV and changing fuel filter etc.. fuel filter had lots of metal shavings in it from when they first built the tank and the ARV was faulty both causing restrictions that were straining the fuel pump, but still the fuel pump was noisy.
So then i went one step further, modified the fuel tank again and moved the fuel pump out of the side pod and repositioned it under the fuel tank with lots of extra sound insulation to isolate it from the side pod and the cabin, not really problem sorted because it was still noisy its just i could not hear it anymore.
So this was ok for a few months until i started to hear the fuel pump buzz again, which can only have meant one thing, the problem was getting worse, so that prompted me to thinking that the problem with the fuel pump was degenerative.
So then i thought back and i did not remember the fuel pump being noisy when it was first installed, then it clicked, removing the restrictions did work, but the damage had already been done to the fuel pump and thats why it was still noisy, so today i put a new fuel pump, and it was completely quiet, i mean you literally can't hear it at all.
So in summary, everybody else that have carried out the derestrictions to the system, but still have a noisy fuel pump, simply put a new Bosch 44 and it is problem sorted,i am sure of it, and the problem should never occur again because the problems that were straining the fuel pump thus making it noisy have been fixed.
In turn if you put a new fuel pump without removing the restrictions then expect the problem to reoccur over time.
I must admit, my 044 has also been noisy since day 1 and it was installed along with a modified tank and brand new filter. I also filtered the fuel that had come from the original tank before I reused it.
My pump has a neoprene pump jacket, Sytec motorsport clamp/bracket and soft rubber mounts.
Still very very obtrusive in the cabin. I understand people's comments about angry bees but I also have a noise that I can only describe as a ball bearing in a washing machine. Interestingly, it stops momentarily when the revs drop as the fans cut in.
My pump has a neoprene pump jacket, Sytec motorsport clamp/bracket and soft rubber mounts.
Still very very obtrusive in the cabin. I understand people's comments about angry bees but I also have a noise that I can only describe as a ball bearing in a washing machine. Interestingly, it stops momentarily when the revs drop as the fans cut in.
I am guessing your Bosch 44 have been noisy from day one due to it being put under strain from day 1 by some sort of restriction on the system, it could be due to the ARV which is the heaviest restriction on the system, the fuel pump has to cause a vaccuum in the tank before the ball in the ARV starts to release let air in, or a partially block fuel return with weld.
These cheap ARV's with balls inside are very dodgy things indeed and if out by 10deg from upright the ball gets stuck, i think i was lucky in that my ARV did not go faulty until some time after installing the Bosch 44, but it was not long after experiencing the bumble bee that i discovered the faulty ARV.
Well anyway i am basing this finding on the fact that i have put a new Bosch 44 on the car after removing all the restrictions and it is running silent, and that is with my ear right next to it not from within the cabin, so it is living proof they do not make the angry bee sound when new, something causes them to start getting noisy from day one or over time, and it makes sense that something is putting strain on the pump, a restriction.
If it is correct what i am saying then the pump should not get any noisier over time with the known restrictions fixed (before installation) and i am pretty sure that the ARV is a main cause of putting the Fuel pump under stress because it is having the pull the fuel through against the vacuum in the tank, which is the opposite of what it is designed to do because as we know it is designed to be gravity fed, the result is that the fuel pump never recovers, and so the noise stays after the restriction is fixed.
If you remembered when i first discovered the faulty ARV and i posted about it, a few people checked theirs and found the exact same problem, these are a common fault. Also these fuel tanks are hand made, there have been a few reports of the return being partially blocked by weld, when i looked inside my tank return i did not have this problem, so may be i was just lucky with my build and it therefore took a while before the fuel pump started getting noisy due to the ARV or due to the fcat that even when the return is not blocked it still creates a small restriction on fuel returning to the tank.
It could be that both your cases of having the noise from day one may have the same blockage in the fuel return? or ARV? both common faults, if you sort these problems and put a new fuel pump and I am confident you will find the new fuel pump is running quiet.
These cheap ARV's with balls inside are very dodgy things indeed and if out by 10deg from upright the ball gets stuck, i think i was lucky in that my ARV did not go faulty until some time after installing the Bosch 44, but it was not long after experiencing the bumble bee that i discovered the faulty ARV.
Well anyway i am basing this finding on the fact that i have put a new Bosch 44 on the car after removing all the restrictions and it is running silent, and that is with my ear right next to it not from within the cabin, so it is living proof they do not make the angry bee sound when new, something causes them to start getting noisy from day one or over time, and it makes sense that something is putting strain on the pump, a restriction.
If it is correct what i am saying then the pump should not get any noisier over time with the known restrictions fixed (before installation) and i am pretty sure that the ARV is a main cause of putting the Fuel pump under stress because it is having the pull the fuel through against the vacuum in the tank, which is the opposite of what it is designed to do because as we know it is designed to be gravity fed, the result is that the fuel pump never recovers, and so the noise stays after the restriction is fixed.
If you remembered when i first discovered the faulty ARV and i posted about it, a few people checked theirs and found the exact same problem, these are a common fault. Also these fuel tanks are hand made, there have been a few reports of the return being partially blocked by weld, when i looked inside my tank return i did not have this problem, so may be i was just lucky with my build and it therefore took a while before the fuel pump started getting noisy due to the ARV or due to the fcat that even when the return is not blocked it still creates a small restriction on fuel returning to the tank.
It could be that both your cases of having the noise from day one may have the same blockage in the fuel return? or ARV? both common faults, if you sort these problems and put a new fuel pump and I am confident you will find the new fuel pump is running quiet.
Edited by R0162 on Thursday 27th October 22:08
I am on my 3rd 044, I've checked all the filters/valves and there's nothing restricting it, also with the power it's now running there's no way there could be any restrictions, all my pumps have been noisy, I don't care anymore and have grown to like the faint buzz, it's only heard inside when the passenger door is open though.
I do believe your pump will get noisy given time.
I do believe your pump will get noisy given time.
Chris I'm not trying to poo poo your ideas but in my situation there's no blockage or restriction other than the standard pressure regulator which you'd hope would restrict as that's it's job.
My tank was Andygtt's and he & I both checked it was clean and free of obstruction in the feed and return. As for the ARV, it may well be at fault but my buzzing occurs with the filler cap removed without change. Also after an hour or so of driving, removing the cap doesn't release a vacuum as would be expected - my crappy focus does though!
Thanks Simon, I can't remember if a new 044 is supplied with a non return valve or if I reused the old from the original pump. Do you know where they can be bought?
My tank was Andygtt's and he & I both checked it was clean and free of obstruction in the feed and return. As for the ARV, it may well be at fault but my buzzing occurs with the filler cap removed without change. Also after an hour or so of driving, removing the cap doesn't release a vacuum as would be expected - my crappy focus does though!
Thanks Simon, I can't remember if a new 044 is supplied with a non return valve or if I reused the old from the original pump. Do you know where they can be bought?
Thats what i'm saying though, the buzz will continue after you have removed the filler cap, destricting will not make the pump quiet, because the pump is already worn and stressed.
Edited to say... i think i am explaining this wrong, what i mean to say is,
" if your fuel pump gets noisy nothing you do will make it quiet again, only way to get rid of the noise is to put a new fuel pump"
" if you put a new fuel pump and still have a restriction on the feed system, the new pump will still be noisy"
" if you have 100% removed restrictions that feed the pump, anything pre-pump, then the new pump will be quiet"
So basically i am saying and i could well be proved wrong, that the ARV is what is making the pumps noisy, and changing the ARV will not make it quiet again, but putting a new pump after swapping the ARV and making sure filter is not restricted will make the fuel pump run quiet.
You may be right Graham, it may be that my fuel pump starts to get noisy again with age and time, but still after all the work i did to make the fuel pump quiet, nothing worked, the only thing taht has really 100% solved it is a new fuel pump. Lets hope it lasts
Time will tell, lets see what happens when Simon puts a new fuel pump in the spring after swapping out the ARV.
Edited to say
... i think i am explaining this wrong, what i mean to say is, " if your fuel pump gets noisy nothing you do will make it quiet again, only way to get rid of the noise is to put a new fuel pump"
" if you put a new fuel pump and still have a restriction on the feed system, the new pump will still be noisy"
" if you have 100% removed restrictions that feed the pump, anything pre-pump, then the new pump will be quiet"
So basically i am saying and i could well be proved wrong, that the ARV is what is making the pumps noisy, and changing the ARV will not make it quiet again, but putting a new pump after swapping the ARV and making sure filter is not restricted will make the fuel pump run quiet.
You may be right Graham, it may be that my fuel pump starts to get noisy again with age and time, but still after all the work i did to make the fuel pump quiet, nothing worked, the only thing taht has really 100% solved it is a new fuel pump. Lets hope it lasts
Time will tell, lets see what happens when Simon puts a new fuel pump in the spring after swapping out the ARV.
Edited by R0162 on Friday 28th October 07:52
Hi Rob , it's fitted in the end of the pump , you should get a new one with the pump , I don't use them as I have a different non return valve so you can have the one off my old pump when I take it off .
Makes sense Chris as you suggest the STD ARV is a bit dodgey ..... Unless you roll your car over Regularly to stop the ball sticking ......
Makes sense Chris as you suggest the STD ARV is a bit dodgey ..... Unless you roll your car over Regularly to stop the ball sticking ......
Ahh well, mine is quiet for the moment, i am hoping it will stay that way,..but seen as though they are gravity fed, it makes sense that a vaccuum in the tank will give the pump a hard time, its the same as putting the fuel pump above the fuel level, and dont forget that these things are intermittent, the ball is contantly bobbing up and down to release the negative pressure and then letting it build back up again, trust me change ARV put new fuel pump and report back, if i'm wrong ill offer myself up for a public flogging.
Its worth the same in either country, a nice 3R is worth about 30k GBP in the UK, transfer that to euros and its about 36k, 2k shipping, 20 k in import duties and registration, then you need to sell for 58k to break even, shipping the car and all the hassle is worth something, nobody imports cars for free, so basically it would go on the market in Cyprus for 65k, sell for anywhere above 60k.
But thats only the same as selling it in the UK for 30K GBP.
But thats only the same as selling it in the UK for 30K GBP.
Just an update, the fuel pump is still running silent.
but i got low on fuel one day, less than 10 litres and i heard it just starting to buzz faintly, i topped the car up with fuel and the noise went away, It is pointing more towards a restriction on the feed that causes them to get noisy, it seems the 044 relies very heavily on being gravity fed and i am feeling more confident that long term strain on the pump having to "pull" fuel is what makes the noise become irreversible.
but i got low on fuel one day, less than 10 litres and i heard it just starting to buzz faintly, i topped the car up with fuel and the noise went away, It is pointing more towards a restriction on the feed that causes them to get noisy, it seems the 044 relies very heavily on being gravity fed and i am feeling more confident that long term strain on the pump having to "pull" fuel is what makes the noise become irreversible.
R0162 said:
Just an update, the fuel pump is still running silent.
but iit seems the 044 relies very heavily on being gravity fed and i am feeling more confident that long term strain on the pump having to "pull" fuel is what makes the noise become irreversible.
thats what i think hence why i have gone the swirl pot route and even have the swirl pot slightly pessurised.but iit seems the 044 relies very heavily on being gravity fed and i am feeling more confident that long term strain on the pump having to "pull" fuel is what makes the noise become irreversible.
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