anyone had a 964 top end rebuild ?

[r4_rick]

hello, mine has done just under 110k and my specialist is telling me i need to have the above work, as i intend to keep it, i dont mind spending on it...any advise, mods or things to have done at the same time appreciated. I.m told to budget 3k and upto 10 if it all needs doing...

[MrCooke]

Top end won't cost 10k, but most will charge more than 3k! 4-6k is where many end up.

You could go to 3.8 for very little extra £ if you don't get genuine barrels and pistons. Stick some cooking cams in and an RS clutch and flywheel and get it all remapped and you'll see a decent power gain, perhaps 300bhp, plus a much revvier character and it should still be under the quoted 10k.

[r4_rick]

sounds good, i'll ask then to quote for that lot

[996ttalot]

The issue is you won't really know until it is stripped. A lot of them turn into full builds depending on what is found. Furthermore it also depends on the year of the engine if you have to modify the head to fit gaskets.

To give you some idea...

To rebuild the std engine, using the original barrels and pistons, but new camshafts, piston rings etc, plus new seals, modifications to heads/barrels to allow a head gasket, and new engine tin wear. That is around 5.5k parts, and then 50 hours labour.

To rebuild as above but to 3.8 say from cargraphic e.g. To rebuild engine to 3.8 cargraphic spec, including all the above, plus 3.8 barrels and pistons, cargraphic sports camshafts, heavy duty valve spring retainers, air flow meter conversion would be around 9.5k in parts. Same labour.

So difference is probably around 4k to go to 3.8 (around 325ps).

I am sure there are other 3.8 conversions out there but it gives you some idea.

You could just do the std rebuild but fit different cams. It is really going to depend on the conditions of the components.

Ken

[r4_rick]

ken, thanks for the reply, that lines up with what they've told me, i guess i've got to have 10k spare just in case it needs the whole thing doing, and then 14 if i want to go 3.8, gulp !

[boxsey]

Yep, mine's had one but turned into a full rebuild once they had a proper look when the lump was out. Quite a few other parts needed replacing too so the bill was pretty hefty. I don't begrudge a penny of it though because the car is a keeper and now has an even more fabulous engine.

[le gravy noire]

My advice would be careful who you get to do it...not all rebuilds are equal and you could end up forking out for it twice if the first guys bodge it. There are different qualities of parts that people use and as with any engineering or maintenance wildly differing standards of work. There is a letter from Strasse in the service history of my car saying they rebuilt the engine (before I bought it). 8k miles later I forked 10 grand to get it done properly and I've heard of others who have had the same experience. My case is a bit different though, they just said they did it but didn't bother (they have been unable to produce any receipts for parts, or any kind of job card to say they did the work). When 9M got the engine apart they found the rings were down to the manufacturers guidelines for replacement and water damaged and the rest of the engine was totally fked. I'd budget on worst case with a well respected Indy then anything else is a bonus. If they've got the engine out, you may as well get it all done Good luck with it all, you'll be well chuffed when you get it back!

Matt

[Henry-F]

996ttalot said:

The issue is you won't really know until it is stripped. A lot of them turn into full builds depending on what is found. Furthermore it also depends on the year of the engine if you have to modify the head to fit gaskets.

To give you some idea...

To rebuild the std engine, using the original barrels and pistons, but new camshafts, piston rings etc, plus new seals, modifications to heads/barrels to allow a head gasket, and new engine tin wear. That is around 5.5k parts, and then 50 hours labour.
Ken

Hi there Ken.

I am surprised you quote camshafts as being part of a "standard" top end overhaul. I'm not saying we have never had to replace them over the years but I can't recall doing so.

I would see a "standard" top end as being: Piston rings, valve guides, timing chain tensioner ramps etc, possibly big end bearings as quite a few have some pick up if there is a problem with the spray rail so worth a peek, obviously new gaskets (which is usually why you're in there in the first place). The tinware will usually be shot - incidentally looked at composite replacement options for my RS but think I'll just stick with standard metal be that right or wrong.

Of course each engine is different and as has been said you need to take them on their own merits once pulled apart.

As a very slight thread deviation I wonder what the feeling is these days re: the leaking through bolt seals, barrel base gasket reputation of the 964? The reason I ask is because in many ways it's habit of dropping oil probably means that owner's are prepared to have an overhaul carried out because they can see a visual problem. Open up 90% of "dry" 3.2 / 3.0 Carreras / SCs these days and I bet you'll find hair thin piston rings, worn valve guides and so on but because there are no outward signs of problems they are driven in ignorant bliss.

Just a thought.

All the best

Henry

[996ttalot]

Henry-F said:

996ttalot said:

The issue is you won't really know until it is stripped. A lot of them turn into full builds depending on what is found. Furthermore it also depends on the year of the engine if you have to modify the head to fit gaskets.

To give you some idea...

To rebuild the std engine, using the original barrels and pistons, but new camshafts, piston rings etc, plus new seals, modifications to heads/barrels to allow a head gasket, and new engine tin wear. That is around 5.5k parts, and then 50 hours labour.
Ken

Hi there Ken.

I am surprised you quote camshafts as being part of a "standard" top end overhaul. I'm not saying we have never had to replace them over the years but I can't recall doing so.

I would see a "standard" top end as being: Piston rings, valve guides, timing chain tensioner ramps etc, possibly big end bearings as quite a few have some pick up if there is a problem with the spray rail so worth a peek, obviously new gaskets (which is usually why you're in there in the first place). The tinware will usually be shot - incidentally looked at composite replacement options for my RS but think I'll just stick with standard metal be that right or wrong.

Of course each engine is different and as has been said you need to take them on their own merits once pulled apart.

As a very slight thread deviation I wonder what the feeling is these days re: the leaking through bolt seals, barrel base gasket reputation of the 964? The reason I ask is because in many ways it's habit of dropping oil probably means that owner's are prepared to have an overhaul carried out because they can see a visual problem. Open up 90% of "dry" 3.2 / 3.0 Carreras / SCs these days and I bet you'll find hair thin piston rings, worn valve guides and so on but because there are no outward signs of problems they are driven in ignorant bliss.

Just a thought.

All the best

Henry

Henry, no you would not normally need new camshafts but it was giving a worse case. The one we are doing now needs new cams.

However if you are rebuilding the lot, then putting in different cams would at least give a bit more power. At least the customer might feel they are getting more out of the rebuild than just a rebuild.

Ken

[thegoose]

r4_rick said:

hello, mine has done just under 110k and my specialist is telling me i need to have the above work, as i intend to keep it, i dont mind spending on it...any advise, mods or things to have done at the same time appreciated. I.m told to budget 3k and upto 10 if it all needs doing...

My 964 race car was done at the start of 2009, rebuilt to standard spec (as required for reg's), same barrels/pistons/camshafts/clutch (standard clutch/flywheel) re-used, cost came in well under £3k.

The job was done at Unit 11, who've always prepared my 911 race cars (with a 100% reliability record over 80-90 races) and that engine did 2 full seasons (very successfully) with only normal maintenance (oil changes and tappet adjustment). Admittedly their "standard" price for a 964 top-end rebuild (covering everything Henry itemised) is £2400 but jobs normally come in more like £4k-£5k. New barrels & pistons add about £3k (inc VAT) to the job, but are not often needed on 964s.

[robmug]

OP, why are you looking at a top end rebuild? What symptoms are you experiencing? Mileage alone is not a reason. Have you done compression & leakdown tests?

[r4_rick]

Robmug
Cylinder Leakage ranges from best of 26% to 32%

Compression test from 160 to 170 LBf/In

A Little smokey on start up

Smells of burning oil

Using oil approx 1 Litre per 1000 miles (very roughly)

Thanks to all for posts so far

[r4_rick]

Robmug
Cylinder Leakage ranges from best of 26% to 32%

Compression test from 160 to 170 LBf/In

A Little smokey on start up

Smells of burning oil

Using oil approx 1 Litre per 1000 miles (very roughly)

Thanks to all for posts so far

[ForzaWhitesGen2]

r4_rick said:

Robmug
Cylinder Leakage ranges from best of 26% to 32%

Compression test from 160 to 170 LBf/In

A Little smokey on start up

Smells of burning oil

Using oil approx 1 Litre per 1000 miles (very roughly)

Thanks to all for posts so far

Hi, am NO mechanic or engine know it all.......

BUT, I once saw an engine go Bang.... 40 miles after a satisfactory Compression Test......
are these 'tests' any use at all? (Baz??

[r4_rick]

Well, I've taken the plunge and dropped it at the garage this morning ! awaiting news once they've opened her up.