Mainstream shift back to petrol within seven years?
Discussion
Interesting paragraph within this months EVO article on the the new 3-series. It states:
'BMW insiders confirm that the company is anticipating a shift back towards petrol during the seven year life-cycle of this 3-series, as tougher emissions regulations force up the cost of Diesels, with the 320i and 328i set to appeal to those who want to switch without sacrificing too much economy.'
Over the last 15-20 years it would appear that the majority of R&D investment for mainstream powertrains has been in Diesel. I wonder how much improvement would have been seen over the same period if petrol had recieved the same attention?
With the recent level of interest in smaller capacity forced induction petrol, and now this possible insight into BMW's thoughts, are we likely to see the tables turned?
I'm sure I'm not the only one with a company car list that is exclusively Diesel, and even for those who have the option of petrol, many must be put off by the CO2 emission tax banding... Fingers crossed that this prediction comes true and mainstream petrol engines are given the development they deserve
'BMW insiders confirm that the company is anticipating a shift back towards petrol during the seven year life-cycle of this 3-series, as tougher emissions regulations force up the cost of Diesels, with the 320i and 328i set to appeal to those who want to switch without sacrificing too much economy.'
Over the last 15-20 years it would appear that the majority of R&D investment for mainstream powertrains has been in Diesel. I wonder how much improvement would have been seen over the same period if petrol had recieved the same attention?
With the recent level of interest in smaller capacity forced induction petrol, and now this possible insight into BMW's thoughts, are we likely to see the tables turned?
I'm sure I'm not the only one with a company car list that is exclusively Diesel, and even for those who have the option of petrol, many must be put off by the CO2 emission tax banding... Fingers crossed that this prediction comes true and mainstream petrol engines are given the development they deserve
plfrench said:
Over the last 15-20 years it would appear that the majority of R&D investment for mainstream powertrains has been in Diesel. I wonder how much improvement would have been seen over the same period if petrol had received the same attention?
Well petrol power has been the main focus since the first mass produced cars were sold, so I don't think there would have been that much more improvement.
EDLT said:
Well petrol power has been the main focus since the first mass produced cars were sold, so I don't think there would have been that much more improvement.
On the contrary; if big investment had gone in we would have seen piezoelectric valve actuation in the mainstream now rather than in 5 years. It's going to be pretty big news. EDLT said:
Well petrol power has been the main focus since the first mass produced cars were sold, so I don't think there would have been that much more improvement.
Fair point, but I'd argue that development of engine management systems and forced induction has come on leaps and bounds in the past two decades, as have computer design and manufacturing tolerences. Who's to say what other developments might have been possible with focus. The problem has been that the marketing pull has been driven through CO2 reduction (via RFL, fuel tax and company car BIK tax), this was more readily achievable with Diesel engines, so manufacturers took this route. If this situation alters, and CO2 emssions cease to be the be-all and end-all of measurements, then I think that Diesel could decline in popularity.BMW got their development investment so right last time round, maybe they're onto something again. Think back to the early 00's, they were producing Diesels that were consistently three or four company car tax bands lower than Audi or Merc for comparable power outputs. Manufacturers play the game of legislation in order to try and differentiate themselves, all we need is for the playing field to alter to allow petrol to have a chance again.
Edited by plfrench on Monday 7th November 00:05
Fox- said:
How lovely it'll be to be able to walk down a road again without the constant droney clatter of crap 4 pot diesels waiting at traffic lights.
Thankfully many of the wretched things can turn themselves off at the lights now, thereby increasing the mpg by 0.00001% and the smugness quotient of the driver by a great deal more.SeventyThree said:
Thankfully many of the wretched things can turn themselves off at the lights now, thereby increasing the mpg by 0.00001% and the smugness quotient of the driver by a great deal more.
Only when they feel like it though! If others are anything like my A3, it won't stop unless it's just at the right temperature. I've noticed it likes it to be 16C outside to do the most stop-starting, probably mainly linked to the climate control and the cars desire to keep the cabin at the selected temperature... I'm sure it's just another sop to CO2 legistlation, although having said that, I'm not sure if the official emissions test includes any idling.Had a Citreon DS3 as a hire car recently, with the start/stop thingy, and apart from surprising me, as I had no idea why the car stopped, at the traffic lights, the system seemed to work really well.
As regards the old diesel vs petrol debate, well, for those of us that can't afford brand new motors, I still maintain, that for a work horse the petrol is still beaten by the clattery diesel. Take the Ford Focus, in both 2lt, petrol and diesel modes. Both cost about the same, lots on Autotrader at 6k/less than 40k mileage, regardless of fuel. The diesel does 51 mpg combined, the petrol does 38 mpg, but if you've driven both, we all know that the petrol doesn't really do this at "pressing on" speeds, whereas the diesel actually does do the claimed mileage. Based on 12k annual mileage, it makes the diesel nearly £300 a year cheaper to run. Servicing is the same, again regardless of fuel type, from someone like Auto centres, up to the troublesome mileages above around 120k, when the diesels should be moved on, cos they can start to cost a bit more.
No doubt the soundtrack is better, but you can't really argue the maths, at the current fuel price difference.
As regards the old diesel vs petrol debate, well, for those of us that can't afford brand new motors, I still maintain, that for a work horse the petrol is still beaten by the clattery diesel. Take the Ford Focus, in both 2lt, petrol and diesel modes. Both cost about the same, lots on Autotrader at 6k/less than 40k mileage, regardless of fuel. The diesel does 51 mpg combined, the petrol does 38 mpg, but if you've driven both, we all know that the petrol doesn't really do this at "pressing on" speeds, whereas the diesel actually does do the claimed mileage. Based on 12k annual mileage, it makes the diesel nearly £300 a year cheaper to run. Servicing is the same, again regardless of fuel type, from someone like Auto centres, up to the troublesome mileages above around 120k, when the diesels should be moved on, cos they can start to cost a bit more.
No doubt the soundtrack is better, but you can't really argue the maths, at the current fuel price difference.
The new dodge challengers with the v8 use some sort of cylinder shutdown for town driving. I'm not certain just how reliable modern diesels are but my parents have had the dmf and the turbo replaced (on warranty) in the last couple of years, there is also a big noise about dpf failure recently. We all know petrols have their inherent faults but I guess if my folks were picking up the tab for the work on their car it would have been circa £3-4k at a main dealer - all for a car which is supposedly economical to run. As it goes the warranty company won't renew her cars policy this year.
At the moment it's pretty much gone from those "in the know" about DPF/DMF/£1000's-on-injectors issues that affect diesels to general public knowledge. It took a good few years before materialising.
Meanwhile, in the last couple of years at the most tiny-size-high-output petrol engines have been introduced by many manufacturers. My prediction; in five years time, these relatively highly stressed engines will have shown up more than enough issues of their own. I think on a similar thread somebody pointed out you can get the new VW Sharan/Seat Alhambra MPV (must be pushing 2 tonnes loaded?) with a 1.4
I remain to be convinced that an engine that small can lug around that much weight for years on end without issue. 120bhp/litre upwards isn't uncommon on run-of-the-mill stuff now, it wasn't that long ago that those figures were Impreza/Evo territory.
Meanwhile, in the last couple of years at the most tiny-size-high-output petrol engines have been introduced by many manufacturers. My prediction; in five years time, these relatively highly stressed engines will have shown up more than enough issues of their own. I think on a similar thread somebody pointed out you can get the new VW Sharan/Seat Alhambra MPV (must be pushing 2 tonnes loaded?) with a 1.4
I remain to be convinced that an engine that small can lug around that much weight for years on end without issue. 120bhp/litre upwards isn't uncommon on run-of-the-mill stuff now, it wasn't that long ago that those figures were Impreza/Evo territory.I actually agree with the general concensus, and think over the next few years, petrol cars will come to the fore. Alot of the smaller less powered ones are very fuel efficient, but are also very "weak", take the Golf Tsi, 140bhp, I had as a courtesy car, it was, quite frankly, terribly weak wristed compared to my 140 bhp diesel, absolutly no torque at all, in comparison, everything delvered at a high rev range. And that's where they fall down at the mo. Driving it in the same manner as my diesel car, I was getting well below the mileage quoted for he car, because the thing had no tourqe, in comparison, and that is the quality that keeps the modern diesel ahead of the equivalent petrol car. And quite frankly, makes it a far more logical vehicle for most boring everyday journeys.
Petrol might get there, employing smaller turbo'ed cars. but it'll potentially encounter the same problems that blight the diesel engines, at higher mileages, sorry, you don't get somat for nowt !!!!
Petrol might get there, employing smaller turbo'ed cars. but it'll potentially encounter the same problems that blight the diesel engines, at higher mileages, sorry, you don't get somat for nowt !!!!
Granted it's only a handful of cars so far, but:
Mazda (with the Mazda2) and Peugeot (with the 208) are banging the "lightweight" drum.
Nissan (with the new Micra) are using the Miller cycle...
...and boasting about "low-frictin engine internals...
...and a supercharger. Seemingly everyone's at the forced induction game now, by whichever method.
Fiat are toying with fancy valve trains in their MultiAir engines.
US firms and Mercedes are using displacement on demand.
Then there's stop-start, KERS/hybrids, advancements in aerodynamics etc...
Given time, I wonder what we'll see when these technologies have really got into their stride and combined? This could be pretty interesting
Mazda (with the Mazda2) and Peugeot (with the 208) are banging the "lightweight" drum.
Nissan (with the new Micra) are using the Miller cycle...
...and boasting about "low-frictin engine internals...
...and a supercharger. Seemingly everyone's at the forced induction game now, by whichever method.
Fiat are toying with fancy valve trains in their MultiAir engines.
US firms and Mercedes are using displacement on demand.
Then there's stop-start, KERS/hybrids, advancements in aerodynamics etc...
Given time, I wonder what we'll see when these technologies have really got into their stride and combined? This could be pretty interesting
LukeSi said:
Hopefully the roads will soon be full of nice exhaust note again rather than the diesel sounds.
Yeah as i can't wait to hear the throaty roar of pure adrenaline that i get from my Nissian Micra 
Mainstream cars sound s
t no matter if they are petrol or diesel. Hopefully in 7 years time electric cars will be considered to be a viable proposition. Of course no one on pistonheads could have one as we all have V8 supercars and have a 300 mile commute everyday. But normal people that do 22 miles a day might of cottoned onto the idea that they don't need a 500 mile range diesel for the 1 mile school runicepop said:
Had a Citreon DS3 as a hire car recently, with the start/stop thingy, and apart from surprising me, as I had no idea why the car stopped, at the traffic lights, the system seemed to work really well.
As regards the old diesel vs petrol debate, well, for those of us that can't afford brand new motors, I still maintain, that for a work horse the petrol is still beaten by the clattery diesel. Take the Ford Focus, in both 2lt, petrol and diesel modes. Both cost about the same, lots on Autotrader at 6k/less than 40k mileage, regardless of fuel. The diesel does 51 mpg combined, the petrol does 38 mpg, but if you've driven both, we all know that the petrol doesn't really do this at "pressing on" speeds, whereas the diesel actually does do the claimed mileage. Based on 12k annual mileage, it makes the diesel nearly £300 a year cheaper to run. Servicing is the same, again regardless of fuel type, from someone like Auto centres, up to the troublesome mileages above around 120k, when the diesels should be moved on, cos they can start to cost a bit more.
No doubt the soundtrack is better, but you can't really argue the maths, at the current fuel price difference.
I think you're pretty much demonstrating my point there - The Focus 2ltr petrol is a pretty old and bsic design. Not a huge amount of technology difference to an early 90's Zetec engine. Think back to the 1.8 Diesel that Ford used to have around the same era and there is a world of difference in power, torque, refinement and emissions. Ford chose to use the PSA Diesel (I'd assume at some considerable mark-up) probably due to realising it would cost them a large amount of cash to develop their own acceptable unit. As regards the old diesel vs petrol debate, well, for those of us that can't afford brand new motors, I still maintain, that for a work horse the petrol is still beaten by the clattery diesel. Take the Ford Focus, in both 2lt, petrol and diesel modes. Both cost about the same, lots on Autotrader at 6k/less than 40k mileage, regardless of fuel. The diesel does 51 mpg combined, the petrol does 38 mpg, but if you've driven both, we all know that the petrol doesn't really do this at "pressing on" speeds, whereas the diesel actually does do the claimed mileage. Based on 12k annual mileage, it makes the diesel nearly £300 a year cheaper to run. Servicing is the same, again regardless of fuel type, from someone like Auto centres, up to the troublesome mileages above around 120k, when the diesels should be moved on, cos they can start to cost a bit more.
No doubt the soundtrack is better, but you can't really argue the maths, at the current fuel price difference.
icepop said:
I actually agree with the general concensus, and think over the next few years, petrol cars will come to the fore. Alot of the smaller less powered ones are very fuel efficient, but are also very "weak", take the Golf Tsi, 140bhp, I had as a courtesy car, it was, quite frankly, terribly weak wristed compared to my 140 bhp diesel, absolutly no torque at all, in comparison, everything delvered at a high rev range. And that's where they fall down at the mo. Driving it in the same manner as my diesel car, I was getting well below the mileage quoted for he car, because the thing had no tourqe, in comparison, and that is the quality that keeps the modern diesel ahead of the equivalent petrol car. And quite frankly, makes it a far more logical vehicle for most boring everyday journeys.
Petrol might get there, employing smaller turbo'ed cars. but it'll potentially encounter the same problems that blight the diesel engines, at higher mileages, sorry, you don't get somat for nowt !!!!
I think that this low-down torque issue should be quite posible to overcome. My wife's Polo GTI with the 1.8T petrol, hardly a modern unit, pull's in a very Diesel-esque manner from low revs. It certainly doesn't feel limp wristed in pick-up from say 1200-1500 rpm. With development, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue to worry about in the main, especially when combined with weight reduction measures as mentioned by someone previously.Petrol might get there, employing smaller turbo'ed cars. but it'll potentially encounter the same problems that blight the diesel engines, at higher mileages, sorry, you don't get somat for nowt !!!!
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