Griffith dispute
Discussion
Looking for some advice ... The story so far:
Went in for 30,000 mile service (mileage reading 28,000) with well known independent. They immediately spotted drive belt incorrecetly fitted causing water pump to run backwards. Tested engine found to be down on power, compression and leak down tests showed a problem, stripped down to investigate found ovaled bores. Diagnosis insufficent cooling flow causing hot spots around liners leading to ovalling. The cheapest solution has been to fit a new short engine which wasn't exactly cheap.
The drive belt was fitted by a garage local to me during a 24,000 mile service in October 2002 (the garage is nothing to do with TVR but have serviced my previous cars without problem) and is listed on their invoice as having been fitted. Since then car has only done 4,000 miles during which time no signs of over heating or coolant loss just a gradual loss of power.
Do I have a case against the garage that changed the drive belt? Will the period of time 28 months but only 4000 miles be a problem? Before you ask the reason for the low mileage is that I have taken the car off the road for 2 extended periods for chassis refurbishment, wishbones, brakes, suspension etc. and am obviously a very slow worker.
What would your reaction be to the facts?
Any contributions appreciated.
Cheers
David
Went in for 30,000 mile service (mileage reading 28,000) with well known independent. They immediately spotted drive belt incorrecetly fitted causing water pump to run backwards. Tested engine found to be down on power, compression and leak down tests showed a problem, stripped down to investigate found ovaled bores. Diagnosis insufficent cooling flow causing hot spots around liners leading to ovalling. The cheapest solution has been to fit a new short engine which wasn't exactly cheap.
The drive belt was fitted by a garage local to me during a 24,000 mile service in October 2002 (the garage is nothing to do with TVR but have serviced my previous cars without problem) and is listed on their invoice as having been fitted. Since then car has only done 4,000 miles during which time no signs of over heating or coolant loss just a gradual loss of power.
Do I have a case against the garage that changed the drive belt? Will the period of time 28 months but only 4000 miles be a problem? Before you ask the reason for the low mileage is that I have taken the car off the road for 2 extended periods for chassis refurbishment, wishbones, brakes, suspension etc. and am obviously a very slow worker.
What would your reaction be to the facts?
Any contributions appreciated.
Cheers
David
Playing devils advocate here...
If your car has been off the road for the last 28 months then perhaps you have removed belt and refitted yourself at some point.
I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the case, but if I was a garage faced with a large bill I might, and it would be your word against theirs.
Have you made the garage aware of their alleged mistake? If so, have you given them the opportunity to put right?
Regardless, I do hope you can get some redress for this - it must be gutting.
If your car has been off the road for the last 28 months then perhaps you have removed belt and refitted yourself at some point.
I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the case, but if I was a garage faced with a large bill I might, and it would be your word against theirs.
Have you made the garage aware of their alleged mistake? If so, have you given them the opportunity to put right?
Regardless, I do hope you can get some redress for this - it must be gutting.
davidn said:
Looking for some advice ... The story so far:
Went in for 30,000 mile service (mileage reading 28,000) with well known independent. They immediately spotted drive belt incorrecetly fitted causing water pump to run backwards. Tested engine found to be down on power, compression and leak down tests showed a problem, stripped down to investigate found ovaled bores. Diagnosis insufficent cooling flow causing hot spots around liners leading to ovalling. The cheapest solution has been to fit a new short engine which wasn't exactly cheap.
The drive belt was fitted by a garage local to me during a 24,000 mile service in October 2002 (the garage is nothing to do with TVR but have serviced my previous cars without problem) and is listed on their invoice as having been fitted. Since then car has only done 4,000 miles during which time no signs of over heating or coolant loss just a gradual loss of power.
Do I have a case against the garage that changed the drive belt? Will the period of time 28 months but only 4000 miles be a problem? Before you ask the reason for the low mileage is that I have taken the car off the road for 2 extended periods for chassis refurbishment, wishbones, brakes, suspension etc. and am obviously a very slow worker.
What would your reaction be to the facts?
Any contributions appreciated.
Cheers
David
Ask them to fit another new belt and see which way they fit it !
Thanks for the advice. To answer some of the points raised:
1) yes spoke to garage when problem first reported, they said they couldn't see how fitting the drive belt incorrectly should cause this problem and that surely I would know immediately if there was a problem with the cooling system. They out it down to wear and misuse.
2)Car hasn't been off road for last 28 months, probaly 6 months max and completed 4,000 miles. Yes I suppose a good defense would be to accuse me of changing the belt some time later. But why would I change a belt that could have travelled less than 4,000 miles? But I agree it is a grey area that the dishonest could exploit.
3)If I gave them the opportunity to fit another belt I am sure they would check this time and get it right. When I initially went to pick the car up I was told that our local TVR dealer had sent the wrong belt which didn't fit. I thought no more of this and put it down to a simple ordering error. However if you tried to fit the correct belt but incorrectly rooted then it probably wouldn't fit. They are I believe a professional and competent garage that have made an unfortunate but for me costly mistake.
4)I sent a letter to the garage on the 10th of June along with a report from the specialist who diagnosed problem and copy of invoice and asked for their opinion in the matter. No reply, sent another letter yesterday requesting a reply before close of business on 1st of July.
I'm thinking of putting the matter through the small claims court after that date if there is not a sensible reply. I don't have that much faith in the average solicitor, had the misfortune to be represented on a few occassions in court (always the plaintiff) and had to take over during the hearing on each occassion as none of them seemed capable of making a decent argument.
Your input so far is much appreciated, thank you.
David
1) yes spoke to garage when problem first reported, they said they couldn't see how fitting the drive belt incorrectly should cause this problem and that surely I would know immediately if there was a problem with the cooling system. They out it down to wear and misuse.
2)Car hasn't been off road for last 28 months, probaly 6 months max and completed 4,000 miles. Yes I suppose a good defense would be to accuse me of changing the belt some time later. But why would I change a belt that could have travelled less than 4,000 miles? But I agree it is a grey area that the dishonest could exploit.
3)If I gave them the opportunity to fit another belt I am sure they would check this time and get it right. When I initially went to pick the car up I was told that our local TVR dealer had sent the wrong belt which didn't fit. I thought no more of this and put it down to a simple ordering error. However if you tried to fit the correct belt but incorrectly rooted then it probably wouldn't fit. They are I believe a professional and competent garage that have made an unfortunate but for me costly mistake.
4)I sent a letter to the garage on the 10th of June along with a report from the specialist who diagnosed problem and copy of invoice and asked for their opinion in the matter. No reply, sent another letter yesterday requesting a reply before close of business on 1st of July.
I'm thinking of putting the matter through the small claims court after that date if there is not a sensible reply. I don't have that much faith in the average solicitor, had the misfortune to be represented on a few occassions in court (always the plaintiff) and had to take over during the hearing on each occassion as none of them seemed capable of making a decent argument.
Your input so far is much appreciated, thank you.
David
Coming to this with an open mind..
1) Yes, you should have given the original garage a chance to put things right.
2) It will now be your word against theirs, tricky.
3) I think the next stage is to get an independent assessment or 'expert witness' - the AA might do this for a fee. That may help to get you an out of court settlement for part of the cost. If you don't want to start clocking up legal bills for no sure end, try the CAB for starters.
I wish you luck but it's going to be a major battle I think.
1) Yes, you should have given the original garage a chance to put things right.
2) It will now be your word against theirs, tricky.
3) I think the next stage is to get an independent assessment or 'expert witness' - the AA might do this for a fee. That may help to get you an out of court settlement for part of the cost. If you don't want to start clocking up legal bills for no sure end, try the CAB for starters.
I wish you luck but it's going to be a major battle I think.
davidn said:
Thanks for the advice. To answer some of the points raised:
3)If I gave them the opportunity to fit another belt I am sure they would check this time and get it right. When I initially went to pick the car up I was told that our local TVR dealer had sent the wrong belt which didn't fit. I thought no more of this and put it down to a simple ordering error. However if you tried to fit the correct belt but incorrectly rooted then it probably wouldn't fit. They are I believe a professional and competent garage that have made an unfortunate but for me costly mistake.
So let's assume TVR sent the RIGHT belt, but the garage couldn't fit it - presumably they tried to fit it incorrectly. Did they re-order a different belt? And get that to fit (incorrectly)? Perhaps then they fitted the wrong, or at least an unsuitable belt. If you've got the old belt, and can prove it's not the one TVR specify for your car, you might get somewhere, particularly if you can cross reference it by part number to the garage bill. By virtue of it being the wrong part it was not fitted in accordance with TVR specification and damage resulted.
I think allegations of fitting the right belt incorrectly are going to be hard to prove, for the reasons stated.
Did the car not have an annual service (regardless of mileage) in the (28 months) meantime?
How one earth did they manage to fit the belt to drive the w/p the wrong way? Was the back of the belt driving the w/p?
davidn said:
1) yes spoke to garage when problem first reported, they said they couldn't see how fitting the drive belt incorrectly should cause this problem and that surely I would know immediately if there was a problem with the cooling system.
So they have admitted they fitted it the wrong way round? If so and you can prove that the damage was caused by this, you might have a case!
Cetainly not the first and probably not the last time a drive belt on a TVR will be routed incorrectly.
However good your local garage may be, the wise advice with a hand built specialist car is to get it looked after by a specialist who is intimate with the product.
Local garages can often turn out to be a false economy.
However good your local garage may be, the wise advice with a hand built specialist car is to get it looked after by a specialist who is intimate with the product.
Local garages can often turn out to be a false economy.
Thanks for all the replies. Not exactly what I wanted to hear but then the truth hurts.
I can see from your comments that proving anything here is going to be very difficult to say the least and may be something I will have to put down to experience.
I am disapointed that the garage in question hasn't bothered to reply but I guess they have heard it all before.
Thanks again.
David
I can see from your comments that proving anything here is going to be very difficult to say the least and may be something I will have to put down to experience.
I am disapointed that the garage in question hasn't bothered to reply but I guess they have heard it all before.
Thanks again.
David
davidn said:
Thanks for all the replies. Not exactly what I wanted to hear but then the truth hurts.
I can see from your comments that proving anything here is going to be very difficult to say the least and may be something I will have to put down to experience.
I am disapointed that the garage in question hasn't bothered to reply but I guess they have heard it all before.
Well the thing is that if someone came after you demanding £3,000, whether it was your fault or not, you'd fight like a dog not to hand it over - it's human nature. You can't prove the case, which is why I thought the expert witness route might be an option. Then if you present the garage with overwhelming independent evidence (maybe TVR Power could help?), they might cough up a bit, perhaps 50% if you're lucky, rather than be dragged through the courts which no-one wants to do as it costs loads for no certain outcome.
Depends how hard you want to fight! Good luck mon amis.
I think the best you could expect is an ex gratia payment, (goodwill) which would be a contribution. How likely the garage is to pay largely depends on how you handle them.
Going in with both guns blazing will not help, unless you haul them through the courts.
No doubt your expert witness can prove the damage was caused byt the belt being incorrectly fitted, but no one can prove who fitted it the wrong way round.
Since you have been doing work, you may well have needed to remove it yourself and refitted in wrong. I know I have before, when I've changed the water pump gasket, for instance.
Going in with both guns blazing will not help, unless you haul them through the courts.
No doubt your expert witness can prove the damage was caused byt the belt being incorrectly fitted, but no one can prove who fitted it the wrong way round.
Since you have been doing work, you may well have needed to remove it yourself and refitted in wrong. I know I have before, when I've changed the water pump gasket, for instance.
Thanks Simpo & Starmist. Points taken on board. I didn't remove the belt BTW but can't prove it hasn't been removed since either. Difficult to gauge how to proceed as garage is not communicating.
It just Pi@@es me off that a 'reputable' business can get away with causing a customer to be many thousands out of pocket. I would at least have the courtesy to respond but then I've only been in business for 20 years so am still learing the ropes!
Thanks gents
David
It just Pi@@es me off that a 'reputable' business can get away with causing a customer to be many thousands out of pocket. I would at least have the courtesy to respond but then I've only been in business for 20 years so am still learing the ropes!
Thanks gents
David
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