Boxsters - any genuine issues?

[JW911]

I'll keep this short as I've had Porsches for the past seven years. Previously a 996 C4 Cab, now a 996 Turbo.

Mrs JW911 is after a Boxster in the new year. The plan is a 987 2.7 however she will look at good 986 3.2s and won't rule out 987 3.2s. Budget is £15k tops.

I know about the 986 engine issues (oval bores, etc.) due to my 996 ownership. This wasn't a problem on mine (sold it at 50k) but it was the reason I bought the Turbo. Also, I'm familiar with the "usual" issues which affected the 996 as well (aircon condensers, RMS, rear inner discs, etc). I make the assumption (being the mother of all feck-ups admittedly ) that the IMS issue will have made itself known on any 986 we may be interested in by now.

So two questions please. Is there anything about the 986 I should know about beyond the standard 996 issues above? Are there any issues on the 987 I should know about as I have zero experience of those?

Thanks.






PS: Ok, it wasn't short.

PPS: "Search" isn't my friend in this case as it's all RMS and IMS.

Edited by JW911 on Monday 14th November 21:39

[nickfrog]

Re 987 and beyond the issues that you mention (rotting ac rads still an issue if bumper not removed every year for a complete clean and/or Zunsport grilles fitted), I have a totally unscientific feeling that the 2.7 may well be less prone to IMS issues or even structural engine issues, maybe because it's less torquey/powerful ? That was confirmed to me by Autofarm. MY06 has the latest IMS design, prior to the IMS being dropped all together in the Gen II.

Brake discs showing corrosion on the inside is still frequent when people don't give their brakes a proper workout now and again (and I mean proper) and/or wash the car and don't dry the discs afterwards.

I've had a water pump failure at 52k miles and I know of several 987 that have had the same issue, as confirmed by my indy, the water pump is indeed a little weak.

Other than that, I have a feeling that the 987 is a little more robust than the 986 as Porsche may have had more time/money to iron things out.

Door membrane still hit and miss so need to check that carpets are all dry, particularly behind and under the seats.

HTH.

[JW911]

Many thanks. Just the sort of thing I wanted to hear. My Turbo has Halfrauds mesh behind the grills for the very reason you mention.

[Rockster]

JW911 said:

I'll keep this short as I've had Porsches for the past seven years. Previously a 996 C4 Cab, now a 996 Turbo.

Mrs JW911 is after a Boxster in the new year. The plan is a 987 2.7 however she will look at good 986 3.2s and won't rule out 987 3.2s. Budget is £15k tops.

I know about the 986 engine issues (oval bores, etc.) due to my 996 ownership. This wasn't a problem on mine (sold it at 50k) but it was the reason I bought the Turbo. Also, I'm familiar with the "usual" issues which affected the 996 as well (aircon condensers, RMS, rear inner discs, etc). I make the assumption (being the mother of all feck-ups admittedly ) that the IMS issue will have made itself known on any 986 we may be interested in by now.

So two questions please. Is there anything about the 986 I should know about beyond the standard 996 issues above? Are there any issues on the 987 I should know about as I have zero experience of those?

Thanks.






PS: Ok, it wasn't short.

PPS: "Search" isn't my friend in this case as it's all RMS and IMS.

Edited by JW911 on Monday 14th November 21:39

Be careful that you do not focus too much on the standard issues and overlook equally bad but non-standard issues (problems).

First and foremost the car is just a used car so a thorough used car checkout goes along way to helping you determine if the car is worthy.

A thorough test ride/drive is very important. The 1st portion is a test ride that lets you absent the need to focus on driving the car experience the car. The 2nd portion is you driving the car.

The test ride/drive sessions wants to start out with a dead cold engine start. Be sure before starting the engine you verify all the dash warning lights come on then go off when the engine cranks/fires.

Leave the A/C off (at least for now).

Let the engine idle and come up to near operating temp. All the while listen carefully to the engine for any abnormal noises.

Once the engine is quite warm (say after 15 minutes) then as a passenger experience the car. Insist the driver cover 15 miles of mixed driving. Once warmed up have the driver hard accelerate the car from near idle in a low gear (1st or 2nd) and continue right up to near redline then shift to the next higher gear and keep his foot in the throttle as long as it safe and legal.

The engine should pull strongly and smoothly.

Back at the starting point you are the test driver now and you follow the same route, drive the car in the same way.

Then after this is all is still well, you give the car a thorough used car inspection.

Then a PPI. This is done by someone who knows all about the issues these cars can have, both the standard ones and the not so standard ones. And since he gets the car after a nice 30 mile test drive if there are any fluid leak problems he has a better chance of spotting them.

Sincerely,

Rockster.

[nickfrog]

That's brilliant advice from Rockster. The only thing I would add is to try and find some speed bumps along the test drive and try and listen for any suspension knocks/rattles.

[Orangecurry]

Rockster said:

.....Let the engine idle and come up to near operating temp.....

If I were the seller, we'd fall out at this point

[gsewell]

Rockster said:

The 2nd portion is you driving the car.

Again, unless you can prove that you have comprehensive cover to drive my car, I would be very hesitant at this point. You are suggesting someone that I do not know drives my car hard on roads that they do not know - probably with legal minimum insurance cover.

A verbal agreement of "you bend it, you buy it!" is not legally binding.

[Popolou]

Solid advice there but perhaps the only other items to add are: -

1. not to be put off cars with a slight puff of smoke on startup; and
2. when you see the water temp at the normal operating level, wait another 5-10 mins longer for the oil to get to operating temp too.

Pops

[Rockster]

Letting the engine idle until near operating temperature is not going to harm the engine. It gives the buyer a chance to carefully listen to the engine through its warm up phase for any telltale noises.

As a seller, it wouldn't bother me to let the engine idle like that.

As an aside: If you take your car to the dealer for oil/filter servicing chances are the tech will start the engine and let it idle until the engine temp is up to the temp specified for an oil change (80C IIRC). In some cars, Turbos for instance, with their dry sump oil system you can't check the oil level unless the engine is quite warm and idling this take about 15 minutes. I have an OBD data logger in my Turbo and it has recorded this idling.

As a prospective buyer if a seller objected I'd be inclined to walk away. Either the seller is clueless what it takes to make a used car sale or he's got something to hide.

As for objecting to someone driving the car I can understand the feeling. I've not yet sold any of my Porsches but for another car of mine I put on the market I let the woman drive the car but before doing so I asked for a valid driver's licence, proof she had current insurance on her car, and I wrote all of this stuff down too -- not sure now but while she was looking the car over I might have snapped some pics using my digital camera of her and her car with its license plate in the pic frame -- and then last but not least I was in the passenger seat the whole test drive.

Sincerely,

Rockster.

[alcatraz236]

Rockster said:

As for objecting to someone driving the car I can understand the feeling. I've not yet sold any of my Porsches but for another car of mine I put on the market I let the woman drive the car but before doing so I asked for a valid driver's licence, proof she had current insurance on her car, and I wrote all of this stuff down too -- not sure now but while she was looking the car over I might have snapped some pics using my digital camera of her and her car with its license plate in the pic frame -- and then last but not least I was in the passenger seat the whole test drive.

Sincerely,

Rockster.

Even if the person has a valid drivers license and insurance for their own car it does not mean they are fully covered to drive your car. They are likely covered only 3rd party - so if they cause a crash, the insurance company would not pay out for the repair costs to your car.

[Orangecurry]

Rockster said:

Letting the engine idle until near operating temperature is not going to harm the engine. It gives the buyer a chance to carefully listen to the engine through its warm up phase for any telltale noises.

As a seller, it wouldn't bother me to let the engine idle like that.

As an aside: If you take your car to the dealer for oil/filter servicing chances are the tech will start the engine and let it idle until the engine temp is up to the temp specified for an oil change (80C IIRC). In some cars, Turbos for instance, with their dry sump oil system you can't check the oil level unless the engine is quite warm and idling this take about 15 minutes. I have an OBD data logger in my Turbo and it has recorded this idling.

As a prospective buyer if a seller objected I'd be inclined to walk away. Either the seller is clueless what it takes to make a used car sale or he's got something to hide.
Sincerely,

Rockster.

1. It's a fact that there's significantly more wear done to any engine if you warm it by letting it idle from cold. Perhaps such an owner/seller is the opposite of clueless.

2. 'If you take your car to the dealer' then the engine has been warmed. Idling when hot isn't ideal but it doesn't cause all the extra wear that idling from cold does.

And no, I never leave any car with a mechanic long enough so they can let it go cold before an oil-change.

[Popolou]

Orangecurry said:

1. It's a fact that there's significantly more wear done to any engine if you warm it by letting it idle from cold. Perhaps such an owner/seller is the opposite of clueless.

At risk of taking this O/T, can you provide links to substantiate this?
Pops

[Rockster]

alcatraz236 said:

Even if the person has a valid drivers license and insurance for their own car it does not mean they are fully covered to drive your car. They are likely covered only 3rd party - so if they cause a crash, the insurance company would not pay out for the repair costs to your car.

If you want 100% protection by having the other driver fully insured and with all risk, well, I'm not sure that's easily to do.

I would advise you to speak with your insurance agent and get his/her opinion as to what you can do, how you can phrase the prerequisite a prospective buyer must have in the way of insurance before you can allow a test drive by the buyer.

Sincerely,

Rockster.

[Rockster]

Orangecurry said:

1. It's a fact that there's significantly more wear done to any engine if you warm it by letting it idle from cold. Perhaps such an owner/seller is the opposite of clueless.

2. 'If you take your car to the dealer' then the engine has been warmed. Idling when hot isn't ideal but it doesn't cause all the extra wear that idling from cold does.

And no, I never leave any car with a mechanic long enough so they can let it go cold before an oil-change.

There is essentially no wear to the engine allowing it to warm up at idle. The biggest hit the engine takes is the fuel it consumes is wasted simply for the purpose of generating heat.

If there were the bulk of the wear would occur right at start and shortly after so all car engines would be experiencing this significant wear and engines would be wearing out. Obviously this is not the case, this is not what is happening.

As an aside, my 02 Boxster (with nearly 250K miles on its original engine) has idled more minutes cold than most cars have idled hot and the engine has suffered no noticable wear. While I do not let it idle until warm I do let it idle until the secondary air injection pump shuts off which takes a minute or so. The engine is a bit more tractable after this bit of warmup.

But it is your car. If you do not want the engine to be idled then so be it. If the buyer isn't put off by your restriction, then that's all that matters.

Well, sometimes my car gets into the service bay right away, but often it does not. The engine cools down, sometimes the car sits overnight, and when the oil change job is begun the engine is cold.

The tech of course has to start the engine to move it into the service bay and then he'll let the engine idle because the factory oil change procedure calls out that the engine be up to some temperature. (There's a drain time call out too.)

Afterwards, after the engine has been refilled with oil, in the case of the Boxster the oil level can be checked cold using either the dipstick or the electronic oil level system.

In the case of my Turbo, the engine has to be running and the engine has to be up to temperature before the oil level can be checked. So the tech will warm up the engine by letting it idle not only before the oil change, but again after the oil change -- which based on my experience if the engine was hot to begin with takes just a few minutes -- to get the engine/oil hot enough that the oil level check can take place. This level check is very critical to ensure the oil level is correct, not because the tech miscounted the number of quarts of oil he put into the engine, but to verify the oil level that is reported agrees with the oil level expected given the amount of oil that was put into the engine.

Sincerely,

Rockster.

[RichB]

Rockster said:

... in the case of the Boxster the oil level can be checked cold using either the dipstick or the electronic oil level system..

But in the case of the Gen II 987 there is no dipstick and it has to be checked warm.

[Orangecurry]

Rockster said:

Orangecurry said:

1. It's a fact that there's significantly more wear done to any engine if you warm it by letting it idle from cold. Perhaps such an owner/seller is the opposite of clueless.

There is essentially no wear to the engine allowing it to warm up at idle. The biggest hit the engine takes is the fuel it consumes is wasted simply for the purpose of generating heat.

If there were the bulk of the wear would occur right at start and shortly after so all car engines would be experiencing this significant wear and engines would be wearing out. Obviously this is not the case, this is not what is happening.

Clearly we disagree.

The key point is that an engine needs to get to an even temperature as soon as possible - EVEN temperature.... as even as possible anyway there being internal combustion occuring.

When you start a cold engine, there are very cold parts and very warm parts... a large temperature gradient. This is the point of maximum wear.

To get the engine temperature spread evenly ASAP
1) it needs to be under load - this gets the same given energy/heat sooner into the engine at a lower RPM (all things being equal) - this will clearly cause less wear.
2) (to a much lesser degree) the car needs to be moving to get the air-flow working (as painstakingly designed) again helping to even the temperature gradient across the engine.

Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 18th November 22:21

[RichB]

Orangecurry said:

Rockster said:

Orangecurry said:

1. It's a fact that there's significantly more wear done to any engine if you warm it by letting it idle from cold. Perhaps such an owner/seller is the opposite of clueless.

There is essentially no wear to the engine allowing it to warm up at idle. The biggest hit the engine takes is the fuel it consumes is wasted simply for the purpose of generating heat.

If there were the bulk of the wear would occur right at start and shortly after so all car engines would be experiencing this significant wear and engines would be wearing out. Obviously this is not the case, this is not what is happening.

Clearly we disagree.

The key point is that an engine needs to get to an even temperature as soon as possible - EVEN temperature.... as even as possible anyway there being internal combustion occurring.

When you start a cold engine, there are very cold parts and very warm parts... a large temperature gradient. This is the point of maximum wear.

To get the engine temperature spread evenly ASAP
1) it needs to be under load - this gets the same given energy/heat sooner into the engine at a lower RPM (all things being equal) - this will clearly cause less wear.
2) (to a much lesser degree) the car needs to be moving to get the air-flow working (as painstakingly designed) again helping to even the temperature gradient across the engine.

I cannot speak from authority about Porsche engines however, with regard to the Rover V8 as fitted to TVRs it is important to drive it to warm it. This is because the cam followers are designed to turn to even wear however they only start doing this from about 2000 revs. Allowing to idle from cold causes wear to the cam followers when they are least supplied with oil, i.e. when it is thick and all in the bottom of the sump. Once the followers develop a grove they stop turning and wear accelerates. I don't know if Porsche have components like this but as a result of owning a Griff 500 I never leave cars to idle to warm them.

[Deva Link]

RichB said:

I cannot speak from authority about Porsche engines however, with regard to the Rover V8 as fitted to TVRs it is important to drive it to warm it. This is because the cam followers are designed to turn to even wear however they only start doing this from about 2000 revs. Allowing to idle from cold causes wear to the cam followers when they are least supplied with oil, i.e. when it is thick and all in the bottom of the sump. Once the followers develop a grove they stop turning and wear accelerates. I don't know if Porsche have components like this but as a result of owning a Griff 500 I never leave cars to idle to warm them.

Big American engines are noted for not oiling their top-ends well at idle.

[RichB]

Deva Link said:

Big American engines are noted for not oiling their top-ends well at idle.

Indeed, but do Porsches oil their bits on the side well?

[BertBert]

I love a nice oiled bit on the side.