Pagid or EBC? Advice and experiences please.
Discussion
'evenin' all.
Just occured to me I should have put this in the mpower forum not just the general one:
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
My e46 m3cs is in need of new discs and pads all round and after the brake fade I experienced at Bedford last year thought I'd take the opp to upgrade.
The car is used on the roads 95% of the time but I will be visiting Bedford and the 'ring again next year, 3/4 hoons around wales and maybe spa too! so I need a road biased pad that can take some abuse and not squeal.
So far I've narrowed it down to either Pagid RS421 (black) or EBC yellow stuff and I'll stick to OEM discs as my car is still under warranty.
Has anyone experienced both..or used either on a heavy quick car like an M3?
Cheers!
LN7
Just occured to me I should have put this in the mpower forum not just the general one:
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
My e46 m3cs is in need of new discs and pads all round and after the brake fade I experienced at Bedford last year thought I'd take the opp to upgrade.
The car is used on the roads 95% of the time but I will be visiting Bedford and the 'ring again next year, 3/4 hoons around wales and maybe spa too! so I need a road biased pad that can take some abuse and not squeal.
So far I've narrowed it down to either Pagid RS421 (black) or EBC yellow stuff and I'll stick to OEM discs as my car is still under warranty.
Has anyone experienced both..or used either on a heavy quick car like an M3?
Cheers!
LN7
I'm pretty sure this won't help but...
I used many pads on my old Subaru Impreza, including EBC Greens and Reds. I was always disappointed with the EBCs. Then I tried some Mintex 1155, and I was happy with the bite and braking ability, but unhappy with their propensity to dump friction material all over the sides of the car. Then I found the Pagid RS421 which worked liked the Mintexes but without the squeal and pad material ablation. This was all in 2000-2003.
Fast forward to 2010-11 when I have an MR2 Mk2 track car. Pagids being unavailable in the appropriate size, I order some Mintex 1144 for the fronts and rears. The rears arrive, but the fronts are on back-order from the factory. Eventually the sprint season starts and I'm still without front pads, so the supplier ships me some EBC Greens to tide me over.
3 months later the 1144s arrive for the front, by which time I'm so convinced by the Greens that I don't bother swapping out to the Mintexes.
So, YMMV etc. If it was my Z4MC on balance I'd still probably go for the Pagids.
I used many pads on my old Subaru Impreza, including EBC Greens and Reds. I was always disappointed with the EBCs. Then I tried some Mintex 1155, and I was happy with the bite and braking ability, but unhappy with their propensity to dump friction material all over the sides of the car. Then I found the Pagid RS421 which worked liked the Mintexes but without the squeal and pad material ablation. This was all in 2000-2003.
Fast forward to 2010-11 when I have an MR2 Mk2 track car. Pagids being unavailable in the appropriate size, I order some Mintex 1144 for the fronts and rears. The rears arrive, but the fronts are on back-order from the factory. Eventually the sprint season starts and I'm still without front pads, so the supplier ships me some EBC Greens to tide me over.
3 months later the 1144s arrive for the front, by which time I'm so convinced by the Greens that I don't bother swapping out to the Mintexes.
So, YMMV etc. If it was my Z4MC on balance I'd still probably go for the Pagids.
FWIW I have e36 m3, started with standard calipers, then 4 pot, now 6 pots.
All the racers in the Kumho series use Pagid RS 19 or RS 29s (yellow) - apparently
I had a set of RS29s and liked them, but they went "off square" in the calipers and needed binning long before they were worn out. Since then I have used EBC yellows and like them. Fine for the road but on track use them HARD, not just firmly, because they seem to like that better.
Currently a full (front and rear) set for my calipers is pagid c £500 v EBC c £150, so they would need to be 3 times as good or last 3 times as long to make sense
IMHO
All the racers in the Kumho series use Pagid RS 19 or RS 29s (yellow) - apparently
I had a set of RS29s and liked them, but they went "off square" in the calipers and needed binning long before they were worn out. Since then I have used EBC yellows and like them. Fine for the road but on track use them HARD, not just firmly, because they seem to like that better.
Currently a full (front and rear) set for my calipers is pagid c £500 v EBC c £150, so they would need to be 3 times as good or last 3 times as long to make sense
IMHO
If you want to stay with road legal pads, then the EBC Bluestuff* & Orangestuff are out of the equation, as are all of the Pagid RS range and Ferodo DS range.
If you don't care, then the EBC Bluestuff NDX are comparable to the Pagid RS4-2 'blues' or RS4-2-1 'blacks' are great - although I can get the EBC pads for about 50% of the cost of the Pagids for my Z4M (same brakes as CSL). Orangestuff are out & out race pads comparable to Pagid RS15 'greys'.
* there are a few applications with R90 certification which makes them legal for road use
If you don't care, then the EBC Bluestuff NDX are comparable to the Pagid RS4-2 'blues' or RS4-2-1 'blacks' are great - although I can get the EBC pads for about 50% of the cost of the Pagids for my Z4M (same brakes as CSL). Orangestuff are out & out race pads comparable to Pagid RS15 'greys'.
* there are a few applications with R90 certification which makes them legal for road use
I have a very heavy E34 535i with 4 pot Brembo's on the front and dimpled/grooved discs, and std calipers on the rears, I run EBC yellow stuff all round which for my set up costs me £210 all in. They have good bite on the road, and excellent stopping power on the track, I too tend to do Bedford.
When I had to change the fronts half way through a track day I nearly kacked my pants on the first couple of laps as It did not want to stop, so pulled straight in to the pits, 15 mins later I went out again, braked for a few corners very hard and the brakes came straight back. They obviously need some serious heat treatment to condition them. Last time at bedford I ran slicks for the first time and the brakes combined with the excellent grip surprised quite a few more agile/powerful cars.
Pagids I can't comment on, as I have never tried them. But once conditioned the yellow stuff work great on road or track. Two track days at Bedford and they are half worn!
When I had to change the fronts half way through a track day I nearly kacked my pants on the first couple of laps as It did not want to stop, so pulled straight in to the pits, 15 mins later I went out again, braked for a few corners very hard and the brakes came straight back. They obviously need some serious heat treatment to condition them. Last time at bedford I ran slicks for the first time and the brakes combined with the excellent grip surprised quite a few more agile/powerful cars.
Pagids I can't comment on, as I have never tried them. But once conditioned the yellow stuff work great on road or track. Two track days at Bedford and they are half worn!
I've got these on my Evo http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_...
Great pedal feel/initial bite and pretty much like a standard road pad until you really press them and get them warm. Then they're superb. Not had any fade from mine under hard road use, but maybe you'd need the PF06 for Bedford?
I've also used EBC but on other cars, Renault 5 Turbo (track car), Lotus Esprit V8 and Elise. Useless things! No stopping power, no pedal feel, downgrade over OEM pads, throw them away. I run Pagids on my GT Turbo (with EBC discs actually..!), but can't remember which ones they are.
I understand that Carbone Lorraine do an RC6 pad for about £140?
Great pedal feel/initial bite and pretty much like a standard road pad until you really press them and get them warm. Then they're superb. Not had any fade from mine under hard road use, but maybe you'd need the PF06 for Bedford?
I've also used EBC but on other cars, Renault 5 Turbo (track car), Lotus Esprit V8 and Elise. Useless things! No stopping power, no pedal feel, downgrade over OEM pads, throw them away. I run Pagids on my GT Turbo (with EBC discs actually..!), but can't remember which ones they are.

I understand that Carbone Lorraine do an RC6 pad for about £140?
Ive had some bad experiances with ebc but in their defence a close friend has them on a 330 & has had no issues at all.
Ive had ferodo ds2500 in my focus for 4 years now & they last well are kind to the discs & apart from a bit of squeal have been utterly faultless no matter what ive done to them.
Ive had ferodo ds2500 in my focus for 4 years now & they last well are kind to the discs & apart from a bit of squeal have been utterly faultless no matter what ive done to them.
As this thread demonstrates, any question about brake pads is akin to how long is a piece of string? For every one person slating EBC Yellows, there is another supporting them. So much depends on the type of car, what discs and fluid was fitted, how the brakes were bedded in, what tracks they were used on and how the car was driven as too make others opinion carry little wait.
Only you can really determine which pads suit your needs and driving style. I'd suggest trying to find some part worn pads and spend a day or two at Bedford swapping pads until you find a set to your liking. As you are only doing a few track days a year then it's not too much trouble to change pads to a far more track focused compound. Leave the day to day pads to something near OEM as they'll be much cheaper, designed to work across a wide range of heat and circumstances and if you're experiencing brake fade on the public road, you really should be calming down your driving anyway.
Only you can really determine which pads suit your needs and driving style. I'd suggest trying to find some part worn pads and spend a day or two at Bedford swapping pads until you find a set to your liking. As you are only doing a few track days a year then it's not too much trouble to change pads to a far more track focused compound. Leave the day to day pads to something near OEM as they'll be much cheaper, designed to work across a wide range of heat and circumstances and if you're experiencing brake fade on the public road, you really should be calming down your driving anyway.
Mr_Dave said:
I've got these on my Evo http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_...
Great pedal feel/initial bite and pretty much like a standard road pad until you really press them and get them warm. Then they're superb. Not had any fade from mine under hard road use, but maybe you'd need the PF06 for Bedford?
I've also used EBC but on other cars, Renault 5 Turbo (track car), Lotus Esprit V8 and Elise. Useless things! No stopping power, no pedal feel, downgrade over OEM pads, throw them away. I run Pagids on my GT Turbo (with EBC discs actually..!), but can't remember which ones they are.
I understand that Carbone Lorraine do an RC6 pad for about £140?
Info on CL Brakes here..Great pedal feel/initial bite and pretty much like a standard road pad until you really press them and get them warm. Then they're superb. Not had any fade from mine under hard road use, but maybe you'd need the PF06 for Bedford?
I've also used EBC but on other cars, Renault 5 Turbo (track car), Lotus Esprit V8 and Elise. Useless things! No stopping power, no pedal feel, downgrade over OEM pads, throw them away. I run Pagids on my GT Turbo (with EBC discs actually..!), but can't remember which ones they are.

I understand that Carbone Lorraine do an RC6 pad for about £140?
http://www.carbonelorrainebraking.co.uk/
EBC blue are pretty good. used on 1500kg m3 track with oem disks. Not amazing but pretty good. Had a set of red in AP's on scooby which were poor. I think over the last year / two EBC have revised their range and improved.
i would def run Blue again on my track m3, and they even have more cold bite than PFZ's on my 46 m3. tbh im a bit dissappointed with the pfz after reading how good they were!
i would def run Blue again on my track m3, and they even have more cold bite than PFZ's on my 46 m3. tbh im a bit dissappointed with the pfz after reading how good they were!
drjhill said:
I have used EBC yellows and like them. Fine for the road but on track use them HARD, not just firmly, because they seem to like that better.
This on an e36 M3 track car. I havn't tried the Pagids but I would be willing to bet they are not actually worth the signigicantly higher price!Edited by E36GUY on Friday 9th December 16:39
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