Does Speed Matter? If not, what does?
Discussion
This is post 1000 for me so I thought I'd better make it slightly more interesting than the usual 'what car do I buy that my wife can park and carry the kids about in, does 100mpg, is cheap to insure, never breaks down, but does 250mph and will make me look like a driving god for under £1500?
Well, maybe not more interesting, but certainly more introspective (self indulgent) than that.
So my question is what are the things that make you enjoy cars and driving, and how has it changed over the years?
For me it used to be speed, it really did matter how fast my car would go when pushed to it's maximum velocity, straight lines mostly - Opel Manta at 115 leptons when I was 18 felt unbelievably fast.
Then I moved on a bit to acceleration. In my twenties I wanted to be world champion of the traffic light grand prix, I'd race anything and everything, even cars clearly faster than mine, just to see them go.
In my early 30s it was all about the twisty bits, cornering was king. That taste of adrenalin I'd get when taking a car round a tight series of twisty bends, nearly losing it, but catching it right at the point of no return.
How things have changed. I still enjoy a fast accelerating car, and to a much lesser extent I still enjoy going fast (though a (well deserved) 14 day driving ban for speeding calmed me right down on the roads). However I'm much more interested in variety and the 'concept' a car presents you with. I read the thread about cars you wouldn't be seen dead in with interest, I found it odd that there was some really quite strong feeling against this car or that car - I just don't get that. Even bad cars are good - getting the most out of them can be very rewarding.
I have loved all the cars I owned in different ways. Here's a selection in no particular order:
I loved my 3 Cosworths - from standard to fire-breather, cars for the masses that you had to actually 'drive', very little in terms of driver aids to mask your lack of talent - I wish they made cars like that these days.
I had passion for the Cerbera, a love hate relationship - I loved the way it drove, the brutal, raw power of the thing, the feeling that it was just looking for an excuse to kill me if I ever let go of the scruff of it's neck. But I hated the cost and the fear of a major failure that would lead to, erm, well cost.
My Evo was the most efficient going fast from A to B machine you could wish for, it was clinically fast, and if anything too good at what it did.
I loved my Elise for the scalpel like handling that got the most out of the paltry 118bhp on offer, but it would turn on you and bite you like a terrier if it was wet and you took liberties with it.
I even loved my little Polo 998cc, totally inoffensive frugal, uncomplicated, and actually quite fun wrestling the thing round corners (no power steering made it heavy, but gave tremendous feel when pressing on - at about 46mph), a damned fine car.
I love my current 5 series for the 'completeness' it offers. I used to swear I would never own an auto, but now I am sold on one for my motorway commute - jams are zero stress these days. It suits the job perfectly.
I am also learning to love my weekend Monaro - it's more refined than it should be, isn't as raw or crude as I was hoping it would be, but it sounds nice and I can take the family out in it, but it is still quite good fun to drive.
Next for me, apart from wanting to own all manner of exotica, is a small Italian city car, something like a Panda 100hp or a 500 Abarth. I know I will look ridiculous in it, but I like the idea of a darty roller skate that I can probably fix myself and won't cost a lot
I have also recently explored working on some oily bits, and enjoyed it immensely, saving some £££s along the way, something I used to think was a black art - but it's not so hard and very satisfying. I'd never have done that in my teens or twenties.
It all makes me wonder where my motoring tastes will take me when I hit post 2000?
So what is your motoring passion, your reason for calling yourself a Pistonhead? Is it speed? Or offroading? Maybe it is being noticed in your P&J - those petrol station chats you have when somebody comes up and says 'nice car...'. Or maybe it's something else? I'd be interested to hear.
Well, maybe not more interesting, but certainly more introspective (self indulgent) than that.
So my question is what are the things that make you enjoy cars and driving, and how has it changed over the years?
For me it used to be speed, it really did matter how fast my car would go when pushed to it's maximum velocity, straight lines mostly - Opel Manta at 115 leptons when I was 18 felt unbelievably fast.
Then I moved on a bit to acceleration. In my twenties I wanted to be world champion of the traffic light grand prix, I'd race anything and everything, even cars clearly faster than mine, just to see them go.
In my early 30s it was all about the twisty bits, cornering was king. That taste of adrenalin I'd get when taking a car round a tight series of twisty bends, nearly losing it, but catching it right at the point of no return.
How things have changed. I still enjoy a fast accelerating car, and to a much lesser extent I still enjoy going fast (though a (well deserved) 14 day driving ban for speeding calmed me right down on the roads). However I'm much more interested in variety and the 'concept' a car presents you with. I read the thread about cars you wouldn't be seen dead in with interest, I found it odd that there was some really quite strong feeling against this car or that car - I just don't get that. Even bad cars are good - getting the most out of them can be very rewarding.
I have loved all the cars I owned in different ways. Here's a selection in no particular order:
I loved my 3 Cosworths - from standard to fire-breather, cars for the masses that you had to actually 'drive', very little in terms of driver aids to mask your lack of talent - I wish they made cars like that these days.
I had passion for the Cerbera, a love hate relationship - I loved the way it drove, the brutal, raw power of the thing, the feeling that it was just looking for an excuse to kill me if I ever let go of the scruff of it's neck. But I hated the cost and the fear of a major failure that would lead to, erm, well cost.
My Evo was the most efficient going fast from A to B machine you could wish for, it was clinically fast, and if anything too good at what it did.
I loved my Elise for the scalpel like handling that got the most out of the paltry 118bhp on offer, but it would turn on you and bite you like a terrier if it was wet and you took liberties with it.
I even loved my little Polo 998cc, totally inoffensive frugal, uncomplicated, and actually quite fun wrestling the thing round corners (no power steering made it heavy, but gave tremendous feel when pressing on - at about 46mph), a damned fine car.
I love my current 5 series for the 'completeness' it offers. I used to swear I would never own an auto, but now I am sold on one for my motorway commute - jams are zero stress these days. It suits the job perfectly.
I am also learning to love my weekend Monaro - it's more refined than it should be, isn't as raw or crude as I was hoping it would be, but it sounds nice and I can take the family out in it, but it is still quite good fun to drive.
Next for me, apart from wanting to own all manner of exotica, is a small Italian city car, something like a Panda 100hp or a 500 Abarth. I know I will look ridiculous in it, but I like the idea of a darty roller skate that I can probably fix myself and won't cost a lot
I have also recently explored working on some oily bits, and enjoyed it immensely, saving some £££s along the way, something I used to think was a black art - but it's not so hard and very satisfying. I'd never have done that in my teens or twenties.
It all makes me wonder where my motoring tastes will take me when I hit post 2000?
So what is your motoring passion, your reason for calling yourself a Pistonhead? Is it speed? Or offroading? Maybe it is being noticed in your P&J - those petrol station chats you have when somebody comes up and says 'nice car...'. Or maybe it's something else? I'd be interested to hear.
Congrats on 1000 posts - you've taken your time, though! 
It used to be speed for me.
Then I lived with bikes, mainly, for 20 years and then got sports cars, and now i want an armchair.
But, actually, underneath it all it's the combination of acceleration and handling and the total joy of the journey. Sometimes it's just A to B, but it matters HOW.
It used to be speed for me.
Then I lived with bikes, mainly, for 20 years and then got sports cars, and now i want an armchair.
But, actually, underneath it all it's the combination of acceleration and handling and the total joy of the journey. Sometimes it's just A to B, but it matters HOW.
In my experience, it's often people who can't drive for toffee claiming a car is underpowered. These are people who believe handling is synonymous with grip and wouldn't be able to feel a decent chassis if it knocked them down on a zebra crossing.
Pistonheads appears to be full of them these days. Annoying.
Pistonheads appears to be full of them these days. Annoying.
Top speed for me is irrelevent. I enjoy strong acceleration, good handling, nice induction and exhaust noise, lightweight cars, slick manual 'boxes, and some creature comforts.
Edited to add that the reality of motoring these days includes keeping an eye on MPG. I cover around 16-17K miles a year and therefore something that does 40mpg is actually very attractive!
Edited to add that the reality of motoring these days includes keeping an eye on MPG. I cover around 16-17K miles a year and therefore something that does 40mpg is actually very attractive!
Top speed is irrelevent as long as it can sit at 120mph I don't care if its capable of 140 or 200mph
Instant acceleration is good, with all the speed limits its great to feel the acceleration given by a V8 rather then get frustrated by a Vtec that by the time the power comes you're over the limit in most gears.
Handling - biased for feel and fun rather than ultimate grip.
Looks - its nice to have a car that you smile when you see it - I get that with my RX7 and once I've installed the V8 I'll get the power delivery I want too.
Instant acceleration is good, with all the speed limits its great to feel the acceleration given by a V8 rather then get frustrated by a Vtec that by the time the power comes you're over the limit in most gears.
Handling - biased for feel and fun rather than ultimate grip.
Looks - its nice to have a car that you smile when you see it - I get that with my RX7 and once I've installed the V8 I'll get the power delivery I want too.
Engine noise and characteristics are of most interest these days. I want an interesting powerplant.
Moving from 4 cyclinders to 6 was eye opening and I now have a real appreciation for smooth power delivery and naturally aspirated characteristics over turbo fours.
Similarly, RWD is also something I've come to really value and enjoy what it brings to the driver in terms of involvement.
Moving from 4 cyclinders to 6 was eye opening and I now have a real appreciation for smooth power delivery and naturally aspirated characteristics over turbo fours.
Similarly, RWD is also something I've come to really value and enjoy what it brings to the driver in terms of involvement.
redgriff500 said:
Looks - its nice to have a car that you smile when you see it - I get that with my RX7 and once I've installed the V8 I'll get the power delivery I want too.
O/T, but how much would does a V8 swap cost for an Rx7? I adore the way the FD car looks, but would prefer one with an LSx engine over one with a rotary.And back on topic, speed does matter to me in terms of accelarative force and feeling the G pushing you into your seat, but I also derive a lot of pleasure from the tactile feel of the car's controls, the smells associated with cars, and the sounds some of them make
Yes it has taken a while to get to 1000 - I'd like to say I have made up in quality what I lacked in quantity, but sadly I doubt that is true 
Age, growing family, fuel prices, speed cameras, traffic volumes, etc, etc... These things all have a bearing, and I find it interesting that my (few) pistonhead friends all find something to enthuse about this car or that car when their priorities have changed, be it mpg, a slick 'box, or whatever. Whilst we are to some extent a dying breed, I think there is a relatively common bond between PHers that is a love of the engineering that goes into making a car. I guess that's one of the reasons the watch forum is so popular on here.
Point taken about some newer members being most interested in power power power and not chassis, handlling, or dynamics. However I lay a good deal of the blame on the doorstep of the manufacturers who seem to be constantly chasing the ponies for no good reason other than willy-waving. Going back to the Cosworth for a nostalgic moment, these were cars that out of the box delivered a mere 204bhp, but they seemed to me to be staggeringly quick, that's warm hatch territory these days, but I don't think on the road performance has moved on that much... Weight has a lot to do with it - a Sierra Cosworth weighs a good deal less than a current Golf Gti, probably due to all the electronics and safety features you have to have these days. Clarkson also has a fair bit to answer for with his fashionably un-PC attitude.
I have a feeling though that this new lot will evolve. Being honest that was me aged 18, I didn't know what I didn't know back then and I was driving too fast to listen to anybody telling me what I was missing.
I like the idea of a bike, but sadly I just wouldn't be allowed, and rightly so. If I am honest I couldn't trust myself to get on one and not have the mindset that I am a fairly experienced road user when in reality I'd be back at square 1, which is a recipe for disaster.
Age, growing family, fuel prices, speed cameras, traffic volumes, etc, etc... These things all have a bearing, and I find it interesting that my (few) pistonhead friends all find something to enthuse about this car or that car when their priorities have changed, be it mpg, a slick 'box, or whatever. Whilst we are to some extent a dying breed, I think there is a relatively common bond between PHers that is a love of the engineering that goes into making a car. I guess that's one of the reasons the watch forum is so popular on here.
Point taken about some newer members being most interested in power power power and not chassis, handlling, or dynamics. However I lay a good deal of the blame on the doorstep of the manufacturers who seem to be constantly chasing the ponies for no good reason other than willy-waving. Going back to the Cosworth for a nostalgic moment, these were cars that out of the box delivered a mere 204bhp, but they seemed to me to be staggeringly quick, that's warm hatch territory these days, but I don't think on the road performance has moved on that much... Weight has a lot to do with it - a Sierra Cosworth weighs a good deal less than a current Golf Gti, probably due to all the electronics and safety features you have to have these days. Clarkson also has a fair bit to answer for with his fashionably un-PC attitude.
I have a feeling though that this new lot will evolve. Being honest that was me aged 18, I didn't know what I didn't know back then and I was driving too fast to listen to anybody telling me what I was missing.
I like the idea of a bike, but sadly I just wouldn't be allowed, and rightly so. If I am honest I couldn't trust myself to get on one and not have the mindset that I am a fairly experienced road user when in reality I'd be back at square 1, which is a recipe for disaster.
Codswallop said:
the smells associated with cars
YES! That reminds me of the first time I ever went to see an F1 race live... I was expecting speed and noise, but nobody told me about the smell. The first time the cars passed there was a fantastic smell that I will never forget, you might see more of the race when you watch it on TV, but you need to be there for the smell. Intoxicating.Quick responses matter to me.
A car where all hell breaks loose if you genuinely nail it and keep it nailed - more with regard to acceleration rather than top speed.
A car which offers excellent feedback and handling.
Can't really imagine replacing the Elise. Yes, it can bite if you drive like a nutter, but have some lessons and get to know how it behaves at the limit, and it's a lot more benign.
After a few other things, I did a wet weather handling day a while back - and you really do have to drive it like a tool for it to snap.
Top speed doesn't interest me at all these days though, it's very rare that I'll go over 80.
A car where all hell breaks loose if you genuinely nail it and keep it nailed - more with regard to acceleration rather than top speed.
A car which offers excellent feedback and handling.
Can't really imagine replacing the Elise. Yes, it can bite if you drive like a nutter, but have some lessons and get to know how it behaves at the limit, and it's a lot more benign.
After a few other things, I did a wet weather handling day a while back - and you really do have to drive it like a tool for it to snap.
Top speed doesn't interest me at all these days though, it's very rare that I'll go over 80.
Good thread topic 
I just love driving basically
The one essential that a car must have is the feeling that it's an extension of me when I'm driving it, like a good tennis or squash racket. Anything with a laggy throttle or grabby brakes is instantly out for me - I need to think about the driving, not managing crap controls. Driving something like, for example, a 135i, is for me like playing squash with a rubber racket; you've never quite sure what's going on. That's so important for me I place it above speed (in fact I recently swapped a Z4C for a 320d because of this!). If a car has that though, then, and only then, do I enjoy in the following order: good handling, acceleration and grip in the corners. As mentioned above, the atmosphere a car creates is also important. I spent a weekend with an R300 a few years ago, and the smell and sound of the car is still etched in my mind. Similarly for all my race cars - they all had something about them that I associated with them and can remember strongly.
I just love driving basically The one essential that a car must have is the feeling that it's an extension of me when I'm driving it, like a good tennis or squash racket. Anything with a laggy throttle or grabby brakes is instantly out for me - I need to think about the driving, not managing crap controls. Driving something like, for example, a 135i, is for me like playing squash with a rubber racket; you've never quite sure what's going on. That's so important for me I place it above speed (in fact I recently swapped a Z4C for a 320d because of this!). If a car has that though, then, and only then, do I enjoy in the following order: good handling, acceleration and grip in the corners. As mentioned above, the atmosphere a car creates is also important. I spent a weekend with an R300 a few years ago, and the smell and sound of the car is still etched in my mind. Similarly for all my race cars - they all had something about them that I associated with them and can remember strongly.
Codswallop said:
O/T, but how much would does a V8 swap cost for an Rx7? I adore the way the FD car looks, but would prefer one with an LSx engine over one with a rotary.
Craig Taylor (he's on here) does LS swaps for £10k plus the engine etc so IIRC it works out about £15k.I'm intending to do a more mundane 1UZ swap for circa £3k 300bhp will do me, its more about the sound and immediate torque than shaving a second off the 0-60
Cool topic, thanks scoff.
For me it's mostly about poise at the edge of grip and driver involvemnt. Simple.
But feeling cool is also important and can make up for lack of the above. I enjoy my 1978 Honda Civic because it's like being in a little time warp and with some cool old soul music playing while cruising along it feels like we're in a Tarrantino movie. It makes people happy who see it and I'm often asked "What engine you got in there?" (it's only a 50bhp 1.2 but with a straight through exhaust it sounds like a little V8 at idle and like a world war one fighter plane when it drives past, not much else like it on the road)
For me it's mostly about poise at the edge of grip and driver involvemnt. Simple.
But feeling cool is also important and can make up for lack of the above. I enjoy my 1978 Honda Civic because it's like being in a little time warp and with some cool old soul music playing while cruising along it feels like we're in a Tarrantino movie. It makes people happy who see it and I'm often asked "What engine you got in there?" (it's only a 50bhp 1.2 but with a straight through exhaust it sounds like a little V8 at idle and like a world war one fighter plane when it drives past, not much else like it on the road)
Edited by oO Trouble Oo on Tuesday 29th November 12:39
As a young man, I had to make do with crappy low value cars or cars that were rusty and certainly in younger years, I drove like an utter twunt to the point I have chosen to block it from my memory. My impecunity and early marriage and familyb meant a constant struggle to buy anything decent so went for more interesting crap than tidy eco-cars.
As a result, I went through well over 30 cars through the years, some of which I was disappointed by and some of which I couldn't imagine not having owned.
My first 4 cars were all slow and left me frustrated and envious of others.
That was alleviated by an old Alfasud 1200 Ti which proved you didn't need capacity or outright speed to enjoy a car but it was still a rusty old shed.
The next 3 were dull and the next "landmark" was a Scirocco GTI Mk II which had style and pace and handling. Should have kept that one as it had everything I needed.
The next batch of cars were all worthy but unexceptional leaving that desire for better and though a Mini 1000 temporarily provided the handling. it was still rusty, noisy and crude.
So the next "landmark" was the Renault 5 GT Turbo - astonishingly fast for its time, athletically nimble and fantastic fun to drive though still not QUITE fast enough, oddly, to match it's handling prowess, even with a "150hp" superchip.
The principal cars I've not really had any complaint about nor wanted to change much came with my discovery of American cars.
My leap of faith into a Corvette C4 was a seminal experience - supercar looks, fantastic noise, presence and speed and I kept that 3 years as a daily driver, only selling because of the CSA.
Sensible "CSA-dictated" cars failed to impress so I had a few years of painful ascension through lesser American cars to arrive at what is probably still my favourite car, my (modified) 4th gen Camaro Z28 which a C5 Z06 and supercharged Mustang failed to usurp in my affections, mainly because the latter two were never daily drivers and the Z28 was very quick for its time and by the time I got to Z06 and Mustang, commonplace performance cars had advanced considerably.
However, the Mustang remains my longest owned car at 6 years and counting, mainly because there's nothing out there I want to replace it with nor much I can afford to replace it with.
If I had to name two vehicles that represented seminal moments in my vehicular history, it was buying a GL1000 Honda Gold Wing at age 21 which was like a missile to me and the Corvette which I bought when I was 34.
To answer what matters to me for a car - it has to have some power and grunt and/or be lots of fun, be undemanding and not expensive (save for fuel) in terms of running it, it must be stylish and different and it has to be in good condition so I don't feel I have to keep on top of it to keep it looking good.
It also has to have an element of practicality and having a family means that I don't use the Mustang as I would like which marks it down a bit. My current garage doesn't yet reflect my ideals but one day will do.
As a result, I went through well over 30 cars through the years, some of which I was disappointed by and some of which I couldn't imagine not having owned.
My first 4 cars were all slow and left me frustrated and envious of others.
That was alleviated by an old Alfasud 1200 Ti which proved you didn't need capacity or outright speed to enjoy a car but it was still a rusty old shed.
The next 3 were dull and the next "landmark" was a Scirocco GTI Mk II which had style and pace and handling. Should have kept that one as it had everything I needed.
The next batch of cars were all worthy but unexceptional leaving that desire for better and though a Mini 1000 temporarily provided the handling. it was still rusty, noisy and crude.
So the next "landmark" was the Renault 5 GT Turbo - astonishingly fast for its time, athletically nimble and fantastic fun to drive though still not QUITE fast enough, oddly, to match it's handling prowess, even with a "150hp" superchip.
The principal cars I've not really had any complaint about nor wanted to change much came with my discovery of American cars.
My leap of faith into a Corvette C4 was a seminal experience - supercar looks, fantastic noise, presence and speed and I kept that 3 years as a daily driver, only selling because of the CSA.
Sensible "CSA-dictated" cars failed to impress so I had a few years of painful ascension through lesser American cars to arrive at what is probably still my favourite car, my (modified) 4th gen Camaro Z28 which a C5 Z06 and supercharged Mustang failed to usurp in my affections, mainly because the latter two were never daily drivers and the Z28 was very quick for its time and by the time I got to Z06 and Mustang, commonplace performance cars had advanced considerably.
However, the Mustang remains my longest owned car at 6 years and counting, mainly because there's nothing out there I want to replace it with nor much I can afford to replace it with.
If I had to name two vehicles that represented seminal moments in my vehicular history, it was buying a GL1000 Honda Gold Wing at age 21 which was like a missile to me and the Corvette which I bought when I was 34.
To answer what matters to me for a car - it has to have some power and grunt and/or be lots of fun, be undemanding and not expensive (save for fuel) in terms of running it, it must be stylish and different and it has to be in good condition so I don't feel I have to keep on top of it to keep it looking good.
It also has to have an element of practicality and having a family means that I don't use the Mustang as I would like which marks it down a bit. My current garage doesn't yet reflect my ideals but one day will do.
redgriff500 said:
Codswallop said:
O/T, but how much would does a V8 swap cost for an Rx7? I adore the way the FD car looks, but would prefer one with an LSx engine over one with a rotary.
Craig Taylor (he's on here) does LS swaps for £10k plus the engine etc so IIRC it works out about £15k.I'm intending to do a more mundane 1UZ swap for circa £3k 300bhp will do me, its more about the sound and immediate torque than shaving a second off the 0-60
That's more expensive than I had imagined, but the 1UZ swap is more in the ballpark I had in mind. I assume it's possible to pick up a 1UZ more cheaply than an LSx too.And you're right that 300bhp should be more than ample for a car of the RX's size and weight.
Not something I have the money for right now in either case, but a definite itch to scratch in the next 5 years.
skoff said:
Codswallop said:
the smells associated with cars
YES! That reminds me of the first time I ever went to see an F1 race live... I was expecting speed and noise, but nobody told me about the smell. The first time the cars passed there was a fantastic smell that I will never forget, you might see more of the race when you watch it on TV, but you need to be there for the smell. Intoxicating.I also have an unhealthy love of the musky/ oily smell of old diggers and other industrial engines. The smell of old hydraulics must have something to do with it
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