One in a billion
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Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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According to reports of the Stephen Lawrence trial, a DNA expert said there was less than a 1 in a billion chance a speck of blood on some clothing came from anyone other than Stephen Lawrence.

How can they work this out?

T_Pot

2,542 posts

228 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
blood group
cell count
cholesterol
plus loads more we dont hear about, but the hint is in the wording DNA EXPERT

Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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I know it's based on DNA analysis, what I don't understand is the 1 in a billion figure.

12gauge

1,274 posts

205 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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I too would like to see their calculations. If they exist.

Sounds like Lies, damn lies, and statistics type stuff to me.

davepoth

29,395 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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Simple probability based on the number of base pairs I would guess. One in a billion still means there are seven people in the world who would match that sample...

Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
davepoth said:
Simple probability based on the number of base pairs I would guess. One in a billion still means there are seven people in the world who would match that sample...
In which case the chance of it not being from Stephen Lawrence is 6 in 7, not 1 in a billion. That's why I can't understand what can possibly give rise to the one in a billion figure.

ATG

23,841 posts

303 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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Dr Jekyll said:
davepoth said:
Simple probability based on the number of base pairs I would guess. One in a billion still means there are seven people in the world who would match that sample...
In which case the chance of it not being from Stephen Lawrence is 6 in 7, not 1 in a billion. That's why I can't understand what can possibly give rise to the one in a billion figure.
No, it doesn't mean its 6 in 7. It means 7 in 7 billion or ... 1 in a billion

Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
ATG said:
Dr Jekyll said:
davepoth said:
Simple probability based on the number of base pairs I would guess. One in a billion still means there are seven people in the world who would match that sample...
In which case the chance of it not being from Stephen Lawrence is 6 in 7, not 1 in a billion. That's why I can't understand what can possibly give rise to the one in a billion figure.
No, it doesn't mean its 6 in 7. It means 7 in 7 billion or ... 1 in a billion
No, the statement was 'the chance of the sample not being from Stephen Lawrence was 1 in a billion'.

If there are 7 people in the world matching the sample, the sample must have come from one of those 7, 1 of whom is Stephen Lawrence, 6 of whom aren't.

otherman

2,266 posts

196 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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Dr Jekyll said:
No, the statement was 'the chance of the sample not being from Stephen Lawrence was 1 in a billion'.

If there are 7 people in the world matching the sample, the sample must have come from one of those 7, 1 of whom is Stephen Lawrence, 6 of whom aren't.
Only if you can randomly pick 7 people out of the world and have them all be the ones with matching dna. Which you can't. A random 1 billion people would have one that matches. Thus: 1 in a billion chance.

Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
otherman said:
Only if you can randomly pick 7 people out of the world and have them all be the ones with matching dna. Which you can't. A random 1 billion people would have one that matches. Thus: 1 in a billion chance.
That makes a one in a billion chance of a random person matching the sample, I can understand that. But the claim was 'one in a billion chance of the sample NOT being from Stephen Lawrence.

If have a blood sample which is from one of seven people, the chance of it being any particular one of them is 1 in 7, the chance of it not being from any particular one is 6 in 7.

deeen

6,413 posts

276 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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Forget the "1 in 7", that's just extrapolated from the probability and the population.

carmonk

7,910 posts

218 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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Dr Jekyll said:
otherman said:
Only if you can randomly pick 7 people out of the world and have them all be the ones with matching dna. Which you can't. A random 1 billion people would have one that matches. Thus: 1 in a billion chance.
That makes a one in a billion chance of a random person matching the sample, I can understand that. But the claim was 'one in a billion chance of the sample NOT being from Stephen Lawrence.

If have a blood sample which is from one of seven people, the chance of it being any particular one of them is 1 in 7, the chance of it not being from any particular one is 6 in 7.
But 6 in 7 was never mentioned other than on this forum. What the prosecutor said is that there is a one in a billion chance of it not being from SL. So are you saying that sounds very high? If so, I'd agree. Then again, it depends what was factored into that quote. Is that just by the DNA, or the DNA plus fact that SL happens to be the victim in the case? If the latter then the chance factor will increase by the ratio of people matching the DNA to those not matching and that could account for there being a 1 in a billion chance that the blood did not come from SL.

Dr Jekyll

Original Poster:

23,820 posts

292 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
carmonk said:
But 6 in 7 was never mentioned other than on this forum. What the prosecutor said is that there is a one in a billion chance of it not being from SL. So are you saying that sounds very high? If so, I'd agree. Then again, it depends what was factored into that quote. Is that just by the DNA, or the DNA plus fact that SL happens to be the victim in the case? If the latter then the chance factor will increase by the ratio of people matching the DNA to those not matching and that could account for there being a 1 in a billion chance that the blood did not come from SL.
It wasn't the prosecutor who said it, it was the DNA expert. The fact that SL is the victim in the case is totally irrelevant unless you presuppose the accused were responsible.

Derek Smith

49,986 posts

279 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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There are lots of arguments about these calculations.

If one assumes that the figure is correct if the total population of the world is considered then the statement suggests that the 'other' 6 ones with identical DNA are spread around the world more or less evenly, one on North America, one on the South, then there's Asia, Africa, Australasia and possibly Antarctica. But that's not how it works.

I've read that the most likely place for someone with identical DNA is on the same bus as you, the next street or, in this case, the next estate. It is not very likely of course, but the one in a billion is a bit misleading.

carmonk

7,910 posts

218 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
carmonk said:
But 6 in 7 was never mentioned other than on this forum. What the prosecutor said is that there is a one in a billion chance of it not being from SL. So are you saying that sounds very high? If so, I'd agree. Then again, it depends what was factored into that quote. Is that just by the DNA, or the DNA plus fact that SL happens to be the victim in the case? If the latter then the chance factor will increase by the ratio of people matching the DNA to those not matching and that could account for there being a 1 in a billion chance that the blood did not come from SL.
It wasn't the prosecutor who said it, it was the DNA expert. The fact that SL is the victim in the case is totally irrelevant unless you presuppose the accused were responsible.
If it was the DNA expert I'd suggest the quote is BS. If he said what he's quoted as saying then he fked up and I can't really see that happening.

Glocko Shirts

1,813 posts

280 months

Wednesday 30th November 2011
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