Black Ice

[DaveH23]

I know the whole winter tyre thing has been done to death but first cold morning of the year up here and found my self a nice patch of black ice this morning.

I have brand new Toyo's on my car but they did absolutely nothing this morning when brake testing on a quiet empty lane although were great on the frosty bits.

Would winter tyres make any difference on black ice? I seem to think not as there is nothing for them to grip on too but happy to be corrected.

[Classic Grad 98]

Not really. You'd need studded ice tyres to get any meaningful purchase on a sheet ice surface.

[kambites]

If you hunt on YouTube there have been tests done on ice rinks and the answer seems to be that they help, but the levels of grip are still very low. You might halve your stopping distances with winter tyres, but half of a very long way is still quite a long way.

[otolith]

Classic Grad 98 said:

Not really. You'd need studded ice tyres to get any meaningful purchase on a sheet ice surface.

That's just not true:

http://youtu.be/GlYEMH10Z4s?t=40s

[Codswallop]

They will help a bit comapred to summer tyres, but as said above, studs are the only thing that will really help. You will certainly have fewer slips and slides with winters though.

[jagnet]

kambites said:

You might halve your stopping distances with winter tyres, but half of a very long way is still quite a long way.

Even winter friction tyres have limitations. Much better than summers, but I'd still treat ice with the same caution.

[Liquid Knight]

Classic Grad 98 said:

Not really. You'd need studded ice tyres to get any meaningful purchase on a sheet ice surface.

That's just slightly illegal in the UK as well.

[jonesy000]

So it's not down to the fact that brand new tyres need to be scrubbed off?

[Bill]

Liquid Knight said:

Classic Grad 98 said:

Not really. You'd need studded ice tyres to get any meaningful purchase on a sheet ice surface.

That's just slightly illegal in the UK as well.

AIUI it's only illegal to cause road damage, so you'd need to remove the studs as soon as the ice became less deep.

As far as winters go vs summers on ice they'd be better than utterly useless, but still not great.

[kambites]

jonesy000 said:

So it's not down to the fact that brand new tyres need to be scrubbed off?

I've heard people say that, but I've never noticed the slightest bit of difference in grip between brand new tyres and ones that have done a few miles. I think it's a myth or such a small effect that it might as well be.

[5lab]

last winter i tried a stop from 30mph to stationary on a empty frozen lane just by humphing the brake pedal and locking all 4 wheels (toyo proxies, mx5). the car took a rather incredible 230odd meters to stop, and flatspotted the hell out of my old tyres (down to the carcas on the fronts). Winters would obviously perform better, but if its a shiney low-grip surface theres limits to how well they can work.

[matchmaker]

Liquid Knight said:

Classic Grad 98 said:

Not really. You'd need studded ice tyres to get any meaningful purchase on a sheet ice surface.

That's just slightly illegal in the UK as well.

Nonsense.

[Bill]

5lab said:

last winter i tried a stop from 30mph to stationary on a empty frozen lane just by humphing the brake pedal and locking all 4 wheels (toyo proxies, mx5). the car took a rather incredible 230odd meters to stop, and flatspotted the hell out of my old tyres (down to the carcas on the fronts). Winters would obviously perform better, but if its a shiney low-grip surface theres limits to how well they can work.

Really? How did your tyres end up bald if there was no grip?

[otolith]

kambites said:

I've heard people say that, but I've never noticed the slightest bit of difference in grip between brand new tyres and ones that have done a few miles. I think it's a myth or such a small effect that it might as well be.

I think it depends on the tyre - I've found that effect really very noticeable with Toyo T1Rs.

[kambites]

doogz said:

It's not a myth. If you look for it, it's quite obvious imo.

Strange, I've never noticed it at all, and I've explicitly looked for it when I've fitted new tyres. Maybe it's tyre dependent.

Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd December 10:17

[5lab]

Bill said:

5lab said:

last winter i tried a stop from 30mph to stationary on a empty frozen lane just by humphing the brake pedal and locking all 4 wheels (toyo proxies, mx5). the car took a rather incredible 230odd meters to stop, and flatspotted the hell out of my old tyres (down to the carcas on the fronts). Winters would obviously perform better, but if its a shiney low-grip surface theres limits to how well they can work.

Really? How did your tyres end up bald if there was no grip?

There is still friction, its just not as much as normal. I think one patch of the tyre sliding over the ice for over a minute created a lot of heat which in turn affected the integrity of the tyre.

Note - they were old tyres and I was on my way to replace them anyway which is why I was messing around in the way that I was. I'd say they probably lost around 2mm of tread in the stop

[Rawwr]

The only way you can overcome sheet ice is with 4WD.

[DaveH23]

otolith said:

kambites said:

I've heard people say that, but I've never noticed the slightest bit of difference in grip between brand new tyres and ones that have done a few miles. I think it's a myth or such a small effect that it might as well be.

I think it depends on the tyre - I've found that effect really very noticeable with Toyo T1Rs.

Nail, hit it, head, etc.

Thats the exact tyres I have on - maybe covered 500 miles in them.

After this mornings test I conclude:

Dry - Amazing
Wet - best tyre I have yet
Frosty - Better than expected
Black Ice - Foooooooooook!

[GreatGranny]

Here in Lincolnshire it was a cold one as well.

My 'on the edge' rears gave a little twitch pulling out of my road at 6.30 this morning. Once on the main A17 all was fine apart from the usual 40mph artics, stupid speed limit IMO.

It was as though it was reminding me to book it in for a new set of rears.

Any suggestions? Need to be cheapish and long lasting if possible as I do around 18k miles per year. Good wet weather grip is also important, my commute can be hairy in the rain.

(Am I asking a similar impossible task to those in 'What Car?' threads who ask for a cheap, reliable, fast, cheap to insure, comfortable, fun car for £500?)

[DaveH23]

GreatGranny said:

(Am I asking a similar impossible task to those in 'What Car?' threads who ask for a cheap, reliable, fast, cheap to insure, comfortable, fun car for £500?)

MX5