Discussion
aycee said:
I noticed a couple of european cars sold very recently in auction for £50k and £59.Were they sheds or are they dropping in price?
There's a massive gulf between £50,000 and £59 
Seriously though, a cheap one will cost a lot more in the long run, particularly of there's any hidden problems in the engine/drivetrain.
Just got the bill this morning for my 365BB engine rebuild. GBP20k. This on a car that was claimed to be restored fully in 2007/2008 and which I've driven only 2,000 miles or so since... Just to warn prospective buyers out there - quite often it is very hard to know exactly what you're buying. Mine had had a full engine rebuild in 1989, only 4,000 miles ago, but it seems they made a major stuff-up and the car was never fixed after that. So you think you're buying a perfect engine with proper documentation but in fact it needed 6 new piston liners. While I was there, I decided to do it properly so now she's got new pistons, new rings, etc.. When I sell it on next year someone's going to get a very nice car!
Boxers are very reliable but they need proper care. They need to be driven, and they need to be properly cared for. Somehow they tend to attract bad owners. Don't know why.
Also, just this morning, I saw a Boxer for sale (#17857) in Europe for €300k. Certainly a price point I have not seen before. There is a definite chasm between the UK and other markets - Boxers are much cheaper in the UK. It seems it's hard to sell a 365BB for over GBP130k whereas the best 365BB's tend to attract between €160k and €200k. Shame really, these cars deserve to be recognised more. They're awesome.
As for 512BB's - in the European market they attract less money than the 365BB's, but not that much less. The best go for 140 - 170k or so. In the UK, it seems they are more popular than the 365's and they seem to demand a slight premium if anything.
Onno
Boxers are very reliable but they need proper care. They need to be driven, and they need to be properly cared for. Somehow they tend to attract bad owners. Don't know why.
Also, just this morning, I saw a Boxer for sale (#17857) in Europe for €300k. Certainly a price point I have not seen before. There is a definite chasm between the UK and other markets - Boxers are much cheaper in the UK. It seems it's hard to sell a 365BB for over GBP130k whereas the best 365BB's tend to attract between €160k and €200k. Shame really, these cars deserve to be recognised more. They're awesome.
As for 512BB's - in the European market they attract less money than the 365BB's, but not that much less. The best go for 140 - 170k or so. In the UK, it seems they are more popular than the 365's and they seem to demand a slight premium if anything.
Onno
I've been banging on about how undervalued BB's have been for some time. Gorgeous, brutal and involving. Always loved this car and have been thinking about getting one but it just wouldn't make sense where I live. In the meantime prices have gone up something crazy but I reckon may have some way to go still depending on the market.
I reckon the non-carbed cars are the ones to have - especially the larger 512BB. Injection took too much away!
Ferrari don't really make cars for men today in the way they once did and the BB series sums that up for me!
I reckon the non-carbed cars are the ones to have - especially the larger 512BB. Injection took too much away!
Ferrari don't really make cars for men today in the way they once did and the BB series sums that up for me!
Murcielago_Boy said:
I reckon the non-carbed cars are the ones to have - especially the larger 512BB. Injection took too much away!
I think you meant "I reckon the carbed cars are the ones to have".I have to agree, but for me the 365 is much more fun, more nervous and more alive. The 512 is a bit more sedate. More torque, less scream, and higher gearing. But, the differences are not that large and they are both fantastic cars, with the 512 certainly much easier on the clutch. In fact, I'd include the BBi as well as a great car. If you only can choose 1 Ferrari and want a Boxer, then a BBi is a good choice.
Onno
JazzyO said:
I think you meant "I reckon the carbed cars are the ones to have".
I have to agree, but for me the 365 is much more fun, more nervous and more alive. The 512 is a bit more sedate. More torque, less scream, and higher gearing. But, the differences are not that large and they are both fantastic cars, with the 512 certainly much easier on the clutch. In fact, I'd include the BBi as well as a great car. If you "only" can have 1 hobby car and want a Boxer, then a BBi is a good choice.
Onno
I have to agree, but for me the 365 is much more fun, more nervous and more alive. The 512 is a bit more sedate. More torque, less scream, and higher gearing. But, the differences are not that large and they are both fantastic cars, with the 512 certainly much easier on the clutch. In fact, I'd include the BBi as well as a great car. If you "only" can have 1 hobby car and want a Boxer, then a BBi is a good choice.
Onno
Sorry to ask an ignorant question but what are the big differences between the 365 and 512? And is the 512 BB mechanically the same as th Testarossa?
365 is gorgeous and the first Ferrari I lusted after as a child (although I think that lust was based on a friend's corgi toy as I'm pretty sure there were no real ones where I lived!)
365 is gorgeous and the first Ferrari I lusted after as a child (although I think that lust was based on a friend's corgi toy as I'm pretty sure there were no real ones where I lived!)
Ferraris are constantly evolving and it's clear to see the 365 bb in even the later 512 m (testarossa) the engine design remained the same, displacement and cylinder heads changed etc. As well as various other improvements. Quite amazing that a design that showed it's face in the 70s was able to cut it in the 80s and 90s.
I personally think that bb's are the un sung heroes of the Ferrari world, in my opinion they are the last Ferrari with true investment potential.
Quicker than a daytona, better looking (IMO) but half the price?
Not for long I don't think, people are starting to take notice of these cars now and rightly so.
365 bb is the purest, rawest feeling of the lot, I much prefer the early rear lights etc and they feel like they rev for ever where as a 512 makes it's power in one smooth 'lump'
T
I personally think that bb's are the un sung heroes of the Ferrari world, in my opinion they are the last Ferrari with true investment potential.
Quicker than a daytona, better looking (IMO) but half the price?
Not for long I don't think, people are starting to take notice of these cars now and rightly so.
365 bb is the purest, rawest feeling of the lot, I much prefer the early rear lights etc and they feel like they rev for ever where as a 512 makes it's power in one smooth 'lump'
T
Something strange happened with my editing there. Anyway - main differences:
512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
JazzyO said:
Something strange happened with my editing there. Anyway - main differences:
512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
Comprehensive knowledge you have there, very impressive! I didn't know about the non adjustable seatback, but I must admit the 365/512 difference list is not my strongest knowledge subject. I must point out however, the 512 has a wider rear track than that of the 365.512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
Having been lucky enough to have driven both, I do agree the 365 is the screamer, that is the one of the two I remember best!
VMLondon said:
JazzyO said:
Something strange happened with my editing there. Anyway - main differences:
512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
Comprehensive knowledge you have there, very impressive! I didn't know about the non adjustable seatback, but I must admit the 365/512 difference list is not my strongest knowledge subject. I must point out however, the 512 has a wider rear track than that of the 365.512 is a 5 litre, 365 is a 4.4. The 365's engine was originally rated at 8,500rpm, then downtuned to 7,700rpm during the winter of 1973-74 and that is what it shows on the tach. The manual says 7,000 rpm, though, so what the exact redline is, is a bit unclear. The 512 was limited at 6,600rpm. The reason I mention this is that the 365's engine just sounds bloodcurling over 6,500 rpm. It's hard to change up! It is in this area, for me, that the main difference lies between the two cars: the experience of driving it is quite different as the 512 cuts off where the fun really begins.
Other differences are the shorter rear overhang on the 365. I also see a different stance: the 365 has the nose tilted a bit downwards (ready to 'pounce'), the 512 lies flatter in standard configuration. This is even more pronounced if the 365 utilises the Daytona 9" racing wheels, which quite a few do.
The 365 has (originally) a 3-way exhaust on both sides, the 512 a 2-way on both sides. The original exhaust cannot be found anywhere anymore and a lot of 365's don't have it. You could get an ANSA sports exhaust in the '70ies which sounds better than the original, and quite a few 365's have this.
The 365 also has 2x 3 rear lights, the 512BB has 2x 2.
The first 140 or so 365 did not have adjustable seat backs, they were non-adjustable bucket seats. Cloth interior was an option that was not available on the 512. Very, very few 365's still have that interior.
Mechanically, a big difference is the single plate clutch in the 365, which was insufficient in dealing with the power. If you do 10,000 miles with a clutch, that's pretty good going. The 512 has a double plate clutch.
I think that's most of the differences covered.
Onno
Having been lucky enough to have driven both, I do agree the 365 is the screamer, that is the one of the two I remember best!
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