now Airbus wants to outsource wings to Korea rather than UK

[sussexjob]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-04/gkn-may-l...

Another sign of the times, I just wonder what we will make in 20 years, the pot will be empty and we will make nothing, clever thinking by BAE to sell out years ago

[Eric Mc]

The eventual outcome of The City being in control of our strategically important busineses.

[Fatman2]

Possibly Eric but the other critical factor here (that isn't reported) is that the entire globe has a shortage of engineers at the moment.

Crazy as it may sound, every company in the world is struggling as there just isn't the engineering staff (in design/analysis at least) to cover the insane demand (A350, C-Series, Dreamliner etc). Boeing are looking desperately for staff, as are Bombardier, Airbus and every single supplier (like GKN). This has a knock on effect to engine manufacturers like Rolls Royce and even non aircraft companies like MBDA and Astrium are short, thus creating another demand for design/manufacturing staff.

Ironically, Bombardier in Belfast are due to axe about 20% of it's manufacturing staff due to a sudden dip in output but otherwise capacity has been (or is going to be) stretched to the limit.

I don't think these decisions are made lightly and what the article doesn't add is that Airbus are looking to create 2000 jobs Europe wide. Some of these will naturally be in the UK so is not all doom/gloom.

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

[DieselGriff]

Fatman2 said:

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I have no idea about engineering pay) but this statement would seem at odds with the dire supply issue, normally a low supply of a wanted good would increase the price, is this really not the case?

[Mojocvh]

Odd. Thought it was Airbus UK that "did" the wings or has that arm of Airbus been flogged off?

[98elise]

DieselGriff said:

Fatman2 said:

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I have no idea about engineering pay) but this statement would seem at odds with the dire supply issue, normally a low supply of a wanted good would increase the price, is this really not the case?

The pay is crap. I did a full time 4.5 years engineering apprenticeship, and after a few years became a manager. I got involved in IT, and made a career change. I had to start from near the bottom, but it was still a 10% pay increase. Within a few years I was earning 30% more. My father has just retired as a charted engineer, and I'm much better paid than him.

Most other professions that need engineering levels of education are generally paid much better, the only exception I can think of is teaching. Engineers also have a lower percieved status in this country, which is wholly wrong IMO.

[Eric Mc]

Labour costs.

Chasing profits means seeking to reduce costs which means moving to areas where those costs are lower.

And don't forget that the city itself sucked up some of the best graduates over the past 20 years - graduates who might otherwise have gone into science and engineering.

[Fatman2]

DieselGriff said:

Fatman2 said:

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I have no idea about engineering pay) but this statement would seem at odds with the dire supply issue, normally a low supply of a wanted good would increase the price, is this really not the case?

Well yes and no but this is engineering you're talking about so the usual rules don't apply. The contract market is ok and some places, like Bombardier in Belfast are paying £40/hour in a bid to entice contract staff over from the mainland. However the rate in England has not gone up a great deal in the past 10 years and is pretty static at about £35/hour (for stress engineers).

With permanent employment nothing has really changed and experienced stress men (like myself) are typically limited to about £40-45k pa tops. This sounds reasonable enough but not really when you consider the technical level of the work we do and the sheer amount of study involved to get a degree.

I'm not trying to brag about my qualifications or intelligence but to give it some perspective a mate of mine went through a 2 year graduate scheme and then 3 years of subsequent employment at an EADS company. He moved as high as he could within that period and was only on £33k after 5 years of hard graft. He then had the choice of going contracting and doubling his salary instantly or changing careers. He ended up getting a job at a top accountancy firm in London with no experience for £38k pa as he saw no mileage in contracting for the rest of his life. They took him on as they valued his mathematical qualifications and analytical approach to things.

Sadly in this country salaries are pretty poor. I'm not 100% why. Perhaps it's due to a lack of recognition or that we have to remain competitive but either way it's not possible to earn any decent money and it's not changing in a hurry. Hence why I'm looking to take my skills abroad as you can easily earn six figures state side or in mainland Europe.

Edited by Fatman2 on Sunday 4th December 11:14

[Otispunkmeyer]

Fatman2 said:

Possibly Eric but the other critical factor here (that isn't reported) is that the entire globe has a shortage of engineers at the moment.

Crazy as it may sound, every company in the world is struggling as there just isn't the engineering staff (in design/analysis at least) to cover the insane demand (A350, C-Series, Dreamliner etc). Boeing are looking desperately for staff, as are Bombardier, Airbus and every single supplier (like GKN). This has a knock on effect to engine manufacturers like Rolls Royce and even non aircraft companies like MBDA and Astrium are short, thus creating another demand for design/manufacturing staff.

Ironically, Bombardier in Belfast are due to axe about 20% of it's manufacturing staff due to a sudden dip in output but otherwise capacity has been (or is going to be) stretched to the limit.

I don't think these decisions are made lightly and what the article doesn't add is that Airbus are looking to create 2000 jobs Europe wide. Some of these will naturally be in the UK so is not all doom/gloom.

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

I get confused at the lack of engineers. If that's so why isn't anyone willing to au good money for them!!? Might attract a few more bods

[Fatman2]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I get confused at the lack of engineers. If that's so why isn't anyone willing to au good money for them!!? Might attract a few more bods

It is confusing but I was watching question time the other night and one of the panel (Deborah Meaden) was saying that we have a massive problem in this country because we keep promoting a service industry mentality to our children. Science and engineering just isn't something we are pushing as as aspirational vocation.

I think there is some truth in this as our entire education system has shifted from one of getting our hands dirty i.e. making, designing etc. to one of services.

My children have theme days at school and have maths days quite often. I'm usually shocked when I hear that the only thing they relate maths to is finance and banking. They just don't seem to make a connection between maths and design/science or anything else that results in many of the products we use on a daily basis. It's as if computers, cars, buildings etc. just appear and don't need any mathematical input

[johnfm]

sussexjob said:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-04/gkn-may-l...

Another sign of the times, I just wonder what we will make in 20 years, the pot will be empty and we will make nothing, clever thinking by BAE to sell out years ago

Shouldn't the UK aspire to desing and build THE MACHINES AND FACTORIES that make the product?


We will never compete on manpower cots, so should focus on the value added elements of manufacturing - the machines and factories that are used to make things.

[ninja-lewis]

Eric Mc said:

The eventual outcome of The City being in control of our strategically important busineses.

Isn't EADS and therefore Airbus majority controlled by the French, German and Spanish governments?

[Ian Lancs]

sussexjob said:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-04/gkn-may-l...

Another sign of the times, I just wonder what we will make in 20 years, the pot will be empty and we will make nothing, clever thinking by BAE to sell out years ago

GKN don't make the wings (apart from A400?) - they do make wing components. Airbus wings are made by Airbus UK at Hawarden (sponsored by the Welsh Assembly) or Chester (not sponsored by anyone)

[davepoth]

Eric Mc said:

Labour costs.

Chasing profits means seeking to reduce costs which means moving to areas where those costs are lower.

And don't forget that the city itself sucked up some of the best graduates over the past 20 years - graduates who might otherwise have gone into science and engineering.

Not a reason to move to Korea. Average salary is over £20,000 a year so is comparable to the UK. Once you factor in the extra cost of flying the wings half way around the world rather than just down to Toulouse, bearing in mind the planes they use for it don't carry cargo on the return leg, it'd be more expensive to make them in Korea I'd think.

[Deva Link]

Ian Lancs said:

Airbus wings are made by Airbus UK at Hawarden (sponsored by the Welsh Assembly) or Chester (not sponsored by anyone)

That's the same place, isn't it? The Airbus Chester factory is actually in Wales, at Broughton. It's on the site of Harwarden airfield, but is a couple of miles from Harwarden itself.

[Engineer1]

DieselGriff said:

Fatman2 said:

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I have no idea about engineering pay) but this statement would seem at odds with the dire supply issue, normally a low supply of a wanted good would increase the price, is this really not the case?

From personal experience, the shortage is in companies with the balls to hire graduates and train them up, and more importantly accept that not every graduate who could become a capable engineer will have a 2.1 or a 1st.

Look at the vacancies on Contract with JLR, 90% require you to have experience of JLR specific software that only JLR use, so how do you get in through the door?

[DJRC]

Fatman2 said:

Possibly Eric but the other critical factor here (that isn't reported) is that the entire globe has a shortage of engineers at the moment.

Crazy as it may sound, every company in the world is struggling as there just isn't the engineering staff (in design/analysis at least) to cover the insane demand (A350, C-Series, Dreamliner etc). Boeing are looking desperately for staff, as are Bombardier, Airbus and every single supplier (like GKN). This has a knock on effect to engine manufacturers like Rolls Royce and even non aircraft companies like MBDA and Astrium are short, thus creating another demand for design/manufacturing staff.

Ironically, Bombardier in Belfast are due to axe about 20% of it's manufacturing staff due to a sudden dip in output but otherwise capacity has been (or is going to be) stretched to the limit.

I don't think these decisions are made lightly and what the article doesn't add is that Airbus are looking to create 2000 jobs Europe wide. Some of these will naturally be in the UK so is not all doom/gloom.

The only problem I have is that the UK is just not generating graduate engineers and when they do, the pay is so dire that many drop off.

The Uk produces a lot of graduate engineers, in fact the engineering talent production line is one of the great current successes of the UK, but you never hear about it. Your comment about the pay however, is correct. This is why so many of us are in such demand around Europe and the rest of the world.

Any half decent British engineer with experience can double their money from their current job at the moment if they so decided.

[Silver993tt]

johnfm said:

Shouldn't the UK aspire to desing and build THE MACHINES AND FACTORIES that make the product?


We will never compete on manpower cots, so should focus on the value added elements of manufacturing - the machines and factories that are used to make things.

Well, so many people in the UK are chasing the cheapest possible deals on flying that costs have to be cut to meet this demand for low cost flying. Hence the departure of manufacturing aircraft parts to where it costs less to make.

It's the same old problem, loads moan about the loss of certain jobs/manufacturing etc and yet the same people demand to fly for £30, Japanese/Korean/Chinese cars, buy Chinese/Vietnamese/Inian made clothes.

[Ian Lancs]

Deva Link said:

Ian Lancs said:

Airbus wings are made by Airbus UK at Hawarden (sponsored by the Welsh Assembly) or Chester (not sponsored by anyone)

That's the same place, isn't it? The Airbus Chester factory is actually in Wales, at Broughton. It's on the site of Harwarden airfield, but is a couple of miles from Harwarden itself.

Sorry my sarcasm didn't come across well. The A380 plant was built with a shedload of cash injected from the Welsh assembly with the condition that the plant was Airbus, Hawarden North Wales and not Airbus Chester England.

[Deva Link]

Ian Lancs said:

Sorry my sarcasm didn't come across well. The A380 plant was built with a shedload of cash injected from the Welsh assembly with the condition that the plant was Airbus, Hawarden North Wales and not Airbus Broughton England.

Hmmm...their address has been a bone of contention but their website says:
Airbus in the U.K.
Broughton
Chester
CH4 0DR
UK

..perhaps that's a step foward, I'm sure it used to be just Chester, England.