Discussion
Dazza N said:
Just been to see the new 911 (991) at Colchester. Longer , wider , lower.
I just got back in from there myself! 
I wasn't too keen on the first batch of pics released, but up close it's utterly luvverly. The smooth way the wings almost blend into the bonnet near the windscreen is so very 911, but also very modern too. The interior isn't that much of a jump from the 997.2 but it is a better designed layout, and the rear seats are almost usable now. I loved the Agate/Red combo they had in the workshop, and I don't like grey cars as a rule.
Looking forward to my drive on the 21st now, must make sure to leave my wallet at home though...!
Dazza N said:
Just been to see the new 911 (991) at Colchester. Longer , wider , lower. We're the initial comments What are people's thoughts ? And I wonder what effect it will have on 997 values ? Thoughts ?
I dont actually think it will cause the 997 to drop any faster than it currently is.MTR
After seeing it in the flesh at the Frankfurt show I didn't even bother with any of the launch events.
I'm sure I'll end up with one eventually, but at least I don't feel the need to actually rush out and buy one, which is a bit of a relief really
Whether that would change with a drive seems unlikely, but best not to tempt myself...
Lots of positive spin from the motoring journalists ('cos they all want invites to all the Porsche model launches to earn their living...) but is it all really all good? Steering isn't the best electro system around (some reports say GT-86 has better electro steering), certainly a step back from the 997s hydralic system (everyone says that), the handling is more balanced so more Cayman like so some of the challenge of the 911 is lost and according to the latest GT Porsche review, the manual gearbox isn't all that good so you really need to spec tiptronic. Sounds like a disappointing (but fast) digital GT (a GTR wannabe maybe) rather than a proper analogue 911 to me....
Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Edited by donna180 on Wednesday 7th December 21:01
drpep said:
bristolracer said:
and why is this a bad thing?
most of the owners of the new 911 wouldnt know a 928 if it ran over their head!
Good for porsche, the next gen will be electric and restricted
Better hang onto the GT3 for a bit then - remind people what real cars used to sound like most of the owners of the new 911 wouldnt know a 928 if it ran over their head!
Good for porsche, the next gen will be electric and restricted
drpep said:
bristolracer said:
and why is this a bad thing?
most of the owners of the new 911 wouldnt know a 928 if it ran over their head!
Good for porsche, the next gen will be electric and restricted
Better hang onto the GT3 for a bit then - remind people what real cars used to sound like most of the owners of the new 911 wouldnt know a 928 if it ran over their head!
Good for porsche, the next gen will be electric and restricted
donna180 said:
Lots of positive spin from the motoring journalists ('cos they all want invites to all the Porsche model launches to earn their living...) but is it all really all good? Steering isn't the best electro system around (some reports say GT-86 has better electro steering), certainly a step back from the 997s hydralic system (everyone says that), the handling is more balanced so more Cayman like so some of the challenge of the 911 is lost and according to the latest GT Porsche review, the manual gearbox isn't all that good so you really need to spec tiptronic. Sounds like a disappointing (but fast) digital GT (a GTR wannabe maybe) rather than a proper analogue 911 to me....
Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Hmmm... I guess I'm not quite as cynical as you. As you say, without driving one, it's impossible to know how good it is but the consensus of motoring journalists suggests that it is utterly brilliant apart from the steering which is at least OK and to some; good.Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Edited by donna180 on Wednesday 7th December 21:01
However, to me the joy of driving a 911 is the vast amount of mid corner traction. Pretty much as soon as you've lined up your apex you can pin the throttle and absolutely fly out of a corner, the "downside" is that on turn in you need to trail the brakes to assist entry. The wider track of the new 991 should mean that turn in is easier and faster and because it's still definitely arse-engined, you should still be able to slingshot out of corners meaning your exit speed should be truly remarkable. The added practicality and improvement in NVH should also make it a better day to day car.
So to my mind it's actually extremely likely that the new 991 is very, very good and extremely rewarding to drive!
Can't wait for the new GT3!
J-P said:
donna180 said:
Lots of positive spin from the motoring journalists ('cos they all want invites to all the Porsche model launches to earn their living...) but is it all really all good? Steering isn't the best electro system around (some reports say GT-86 has better electro steering), certainly a step back from the 997s hydralic system (everyone says that), the handling is more balanced so more Cayman like so some of the challenge of the 911 is lost and according to the latest GT Porsche review, the manual gearbox isn't all that good so you really need to spec tiptronic. Sounds like a disappointing (but fast) digital GT (a GTR wannabe maybe) rather than a proper analogue 911 to me....
Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Hmmm... I guess I'm not quite as cynical as you. As you say, without driving one, it's impossible to know how good it is but the consensus of motoring journalists suggests that it is utterly brilliant apart from the steering which is at least OK and to some; good.Means the next Cayman can be developed a bit more and become more of a sportscar but 80k for an S when you probably need to spec 10k worth of gearbox and performance options to end up with a car that's faster but not challenging and ultimately still less balanced than a Cayman........
Given that it's difficult enough sticking to UK limits in a Cayman unless you really need 4 seats I don't see the non GT3 991 as being a really positive move forward..... I haven't driven yet so who knows.....
Edit: the electro steering saves a gallon of fuel every 2800 miles.... big deal. Fuel even if it doubled in price would still be a small portion of 911 cost of ownership... Why not offer the proper steering as an option as every other handling option is extra cost.....
Edited by donna180 on Wednesday 7th December 21:01
However, to me the joy of driving a 911 is the vast amount of mid corner traction. Pretty much as soon as you've lined up your apex you can pin the throttle and absolutely fly out of a corner, the "downside" is that on turn in you need to trail the brakes to assist entry. The wider track of the new 991 should mean that turn in is easier and faster and because it's still definitely arse-engined, you should still be able to slingshot out of corners meaning your exit speed should be truly remarkable. The added practicality and improvement in NVH should also make it a better day to day car.
So to my mind it's actually extremely likely that the new 991 is very, very good and extremely rewarding to drive!
Can't wait for the new GT3!
Don't think 991 will be bad but seems a bit like a cynical car and a move towards the GTR and a long long way from a 993 - the steering is worse than it could be for no real reason....It's a Porsche, surely you should get the best steering possible and everyone just accepts the backward move without any protest - so the next model will be more anesthetized.... Agree on practical improvements and as reported, it will be very quick on a circuit or point to point but you'd think you'd get a good manual gearbox...
For the price of a loaded 991, a new GTR and Caterham Supersport cover more bases...
donna180 said:
Agree on the GT3.
Don't think 991 will be bad but seems a bit like a cynical car and a move towards the GTR and a long long way from a 993 -
Not sure why it's even worth comparing a 2012 car with one almost 20 years older.Don't think 991 will be bad but seems a bit like a cynical car and a move towards the GTR and a long long way from a 993 -
What was the competition against the 993 when it was released in 1994? Those were the yardsticks the 993 were designed to compete against.
What is the competition for the 991 in 2012? GTR, check. R8, check. Aston, maybe. Merc offering? BMW offering?
Against a new 2012 GTR, price differential is not so big, GTR performance edges, but Porsche trounces in terms of desirability/quality/etc. Performance close. R8 less practical. In summary, the 991 vs the competition looks very favourable.
was at OPC East London last night for 991 launch
they handed out limited edition metal 1:43 models of the 991.
3 cars, all with PDK and non paddle s/wheel.
The standard Carrera wheels are lovely .. they are in effect Boxster Spyder wheels but 1 inch bigger.
To my mind, the interior has lost its 'race car' origins. The surfaces are more complex, there are buttons galore, the center console feels weird, and the door panels are just a mess.
Build quality is good, plastic quality is much improved. It's not a quantum leap however. It's become too teutonic now.
The car looks big. It may be lighter, but I think it has crossed the threshold of nimble sports cars to GT car, size wise. The rear has too much bumper. The rear lights would work better if it did not have ledge on the bumper. The front lights have a strange squeezed bug eyed shape when looking down at it.
they handed out limited edition metal 1:43 models of the 991.
3 cars, all with PDK and non paddle s/wheel.
The standard Carrera wheels are lovely .. they are in effect Boxster Spyder wheels but 1 inch bigger.
To my mind, the interior has lost its 'race car' origins. The surfaces are more complex, there are buttons galore, the center console feels weird, and the door panels are just a mess.
Build quality is good, plastic quality is much improved. It's not a quantum leap however. It's become too teutonic now.
The car looks big. It may be lighter, but I think it has crossed the threshold of nimble sports cars to GT car, size wise. The rear has too much bumper. The rear lights would work better if it did not have ledge on the bumper. The front lights have a strange squeezed bug eyed shape when looking down at it.
spareparts said:
donna180 said:
Agree on the GT3.
Don't think 991 will be bad but seems a bit like a cynical car and a move towards the GTR and a long long way from a 993 -
Not sure why it's even worth comparing a 2012 car with one almost 20 years older.Don't think 991 will be bad but seems a bit like a cynical car and a move towards the GTR and a long long way from a 993 -
What was the competition against the 993 when it was released in 1994? Those were the yardsticks the 993 were designed to compete against.
What is the competition for the 991 in 2012? GTR, check. R8, check. Aston, maybe. Merc offering? BMW offering?
Against a new 2012 GTR, price differential is not so big, GTR performance edges, but Porsche trounces in terms of desirability/quality/etc. Performance close. R8 less practical. In summary, the 991 vs the competition looks very favourable.
Ok so the GTR does GTR-ness better than the 991 for less money...
The R8 probably has better steering feel and build and manual gearbox....
Blimey the 991 is almost making the Evora S look good value (only joking but!!!)
Maybe Porsche are trying to boost Panamera sales.... you can have it in two versions: short wheelbase and large wheelbase....
As MrDemon says, just like a Cayman but with crap manual gearbox and steering.
This could mean Porsche develop the next gen Cayman which would be a good thing.
SFO said:
was at OPC East London last night for 991 launch
they handed out limited edition metal 1:43 models of the 991.
3 cars, all with PDK and non paddle s/wheel.
The standard Carrera wheels are lovely .. they are in effect Boxster Spyder wheels but 1 inch bigger.
To my mind, the interior has lost its 'race car' origins. The surfaces are more complex, there are buttons galore, the center console feels weird, and the door panels are just a mess.
Build quality is good, plastic quality is much improved. It's not a quantum leap however. It's become too teutonic now.
The car looks big. It may be lighter, but I think it has crossed the threshold of nimble sports cars to GT car, size wise. The rear has too much bumper. The rear lights would work better if it did not have ledge on the bumper. The front lights have a strange squeezed bug eyed shape when looking down at it.
I think this is a very comparable assessment of those elements which grate with me. You are a person of good taste.they handed out limited edition metal 1:43 models of the 991.
3 cars, all with PDK and non paddle s/wheel.
The standard Carrera wheels are lovely .. they are in effect Boxster Spyder wheels but 1 inch bigger.
To my mind, the interior has lost its 'race car' origins. The surfaces are more complex, there are buttons galore, the center console feels weird, and the door panels are just a mess.
Build quality is good, plastic quality is much improved. It's not a quantum leap however. It's become too teutonic now.
The car looks big. It may be lighter, but I think it has crossed the threshold of nimble sports cars to GT car, size wise. The rear has too much bumper. The rear lights would work better if it did not have ledge on the bumper. The front lights have a strange squeezed bug eyed shape when looking down at it.
The door cards in particular are an abomination.
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