Ferrari Update
Discussion
http://msn.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1052567,00.html
quote:
Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone has once again condemned Ferrari's 'manipulation' of the result in Austria and warned them not to do the same at Monaco this weekend.
Ecclestone said the way Ferrari ordered Rubens Barrichello to move over for Michael Schumacher at the A1-Ring two weeks' ago was not good for the sport.
The team have refused to rule out a similar `fix' in Monaco even though they and both drivers have to appear before the World Council of the sport's governing body, FIA, next month.
"It was not good for F1 but they did not break the rules," said Ecclestone. "I think if Ferrari and Michael had realised the reaction of the public they would not have had it happen.
"They would be ill-advised to do anything similar in the future unless it was the last race to decide the title."
Schumacher could lose the points he won in Austria and also faces a race ban which would rule him out of the British Grand Prix at Silverstone on July 7.
But FIA president Max Mosley insists the Ferrari farrago will not damage the sport and has only added to the interest in it.
"I do not think it's damaged the image of F1, but it may have damaged the image of Ferrari in the short term," said Mosley. "But then soon it will be Forza Ferrari again.
"The reaction is a tremendous endorsement of F1. I do not think you would get that sort of reaction from a motorcross event.
"I think it has made the season more interesting. I think the (television) audience for Monaco will actually be higher than it has been in the past."
The German, who leads the championship by 27 points, is confident of regaining top spot when practice resumes tomorrow afternoon following the traditional restday, needing one win to equal Ayrton Senna's record of six victories in Monte
Carlo.
Renault's Jarno Trulli set the fastest time from the Toyota of F1 rookie Allan McNish, whose fellow Scot David Coulthard was third fastest in the McLaren.
Hmmm, I would be unhappy with a race ban or disqualification. (My view is tainted by the fact that I have been a Ferrari supporter for as long as I can remember, even through the lean years 
)
From a purely competitive/business view, I can understand that Todt et al want Michael to have maximum possible points for every race. However, it strikes me that the four points gained by him were not that relevant (at this stage).
How would we have reacted if the move was pulled at the end of the season where the championship actully hinged on the team orders that forced the change in order?
Anyway, I for one still love F1 (flamesuit is on) and watch every race I can. And I'll support Ferrari 'till the day I die
H
) From a purely competitive/business view, I can understand that Todt et al want Michael to have maximum possible points for every race. However, it strikes me that the four points gained by him were not that relevant (at this stage).
How would we have reacted if the move was pulled at the end of the season where the championship actully hinged on the team orders that forced the change in order?
Anyway, I for one still love F1 (flamesuit is on) and watch every race I can. And I'll support Ferrari 'till the day I die
H
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However, it strikes me that the four points gained by him were not that relevant (at this stage).
So what would happen if MS gained another 20 points in the championship, and then crashed out and broke a leg mid-season? The 4 points might then make the difference, but it would be too late then to do anything about it.
I can see why they did it, and it may be according to the rules, but it's crap for F1, its supposed to be a race.
Well Mr Moseley I think you are wrong. I for one won't be watching on Sunday, nor again until the Ferrari team are bought to order for making a mockery of the sport.
As for the I love Ferrari forever crap, I have only ever heard such sentimental tosh from schoolgirls when referring to Boy bands...
No offence Harrigan.....wrong is wrong in anyones book. I heard some twat on the telly today trying to defend Roy Keane....
best player or not if he can't respect his boss then get on the plane and go home you arrogant git... and the same goes for Ferrari.
As for the I love Ferrari forever crap, I have only ever heard such sentimental tosh from schoolgirls when referring to Boy bands...
No offence Harrigan.....wrong is wrong in anyones book. I heard some twat on the telly today trying to defend Roy Keane....
best player or not if he can't respect his boss then get on the plane and go home you arrogant git... and the same goes for Ferrari.
Has Barichello got no pride? What would they have done if he'd given them the finger? Sacked him for winning?
And even if they had done, it's not as though he'd struggle to get another drive with a good team is it? And he's hardly going to be hard up?
And incidentally why are F1 waiting so long before hauling Ferrari in front of the beaks?
Thought: because it'll be so long after it'll be out of people's minds so they'll be able to get away with a lighter penalty.
Imagine if this had been a horse race, and the same trainer had two horses in one race. And on his instructions, the leading jockey pulled up because the trainer wanted the second placed one to become champion jockey?
This stinks.
And even if they had done, it's not as though he'd struggle to get another drive with a good team is it? And he's hardly going to be hard up?
And incidentally why are F1 waiting so long before hauling Ferrari in front of the beaks?
Thought: because it'll be so long after it'll be out of people's minds so they'll be able to get away with a lighter penalty.
Imagine if this had been a horse race, and the same trainer had two horses in one race. And on his instructions, the leading jockey pulled up because the trainer wanted the second placed one to become champion jockey?
This stinks.
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....As for the I love Ferrari forever crap, I have only ever heard such sentimental tosh from schoolgirls when referring to Boy bands...
No offence Harrigan.....wrong is wrong in anyones book....
Andy,
No offence taken, you have a point about sentimental tosh, it goes a lot deeper than that though, I grew up with Italians in interesting circumstances and the passion (and faith) these guys have for Ferrari is incredible! It sort of rubbed off! (Maybe I am just a
) Not very practical/logical, but I need to have at least one irrational and sentimental focus, if only for balance...
Oh, hang on, that's my TVR! Sacrilege! Anyway, emotion aside, I agree that the team orders were out of order although I can understand them from a tactical perspective. If anything, though, the controversy has sparked a renewed interest in the sport! Wouldn't be surprised to hear that there has been a certain amount of connivance behind the scenes to milk this one as far as it will go, Mr. Ecclestone!
I'll buy you a
at Chatsworth and you can discuss my role as a boy band loving schoolgirl with my other half! Harrigan
Harrigan
No probs mate, guess I am just as bad about Arsenal really although I have never seen them move over and let Spurs through to win anything!!
I always wanted Ferrari to do well but once that spoiled cheat Schumacher went there I knew I would end up hating them.... what mystifies me is that people assume it's because he's German
I don't give a toss where he comes from, I don't like him because he cheats, and doesn't allow his team mates to have parity with him. Real sportsmen prove themselves against the best, he's never done that. He never beat Senna when he was alive and he has never shared equal status with another top class driver like Villeneuve.
The best thing F1 could do is to put Schumacher and Montoya in a identical Ferrari and let them go race..... no f*****g chance of that...
Look forward to sharing a beer at Chatsworth mate, with your Boyzone album on the CD player
No probs mate, guess I am just as bad about Arsenal really although I have never seen them move over and let Spurs through to win anything!!
I always wanted Ferrari to do well but once that spoiled cheat Schumacher went there I knew I would end up hating them.... what mystifies me is that people assume it's because he's German
I don't give a toss where he comes from, I don't like him because he cheats, and doesn't allow his team mates to have parity with him. Real sportsmen prove themselves against the best, he's never done that. He never beat Senna when he was alive and he has never shared equal status with another top class driver like Villeneuve. The best thing F1 could do is to put Schumacher and Montoya in a identical Ferrari and let them go race..... no f*****g chance of that...
Look forward to sharing a beer at Chatsworth mate, with your Boyzone album on the CD player
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If as Bernie said, they did nothing wrong, then why are they bothering to go to "court"?
Paul
I thought the court appearance was for breaching etiquette by allowing RB the top step of the podium rather than the race result and the way it was gained.
I've said it before but anyone who thinks it's competitive racing between team mates is naive. Ferrari have made it clear fom the outset that Schumacher is their no. 1 and Barichello his wingman.
If you want it any other way you'll have to accept one car per team.
I don't think the current set up makes for the best racing and I'm not a Ferrariphile particularly but I can't agree with all this cr@p about Ferrari deserving to be banned and everyone suddenly getting all self-righteous. It's the way it's always been, nobody has ever pretended otherwise.
The point was that IIRC this sort of team orders was banned a few years ago (after Coulthard let Hakkinen through as part of a drivers agreement that whoever got to the 1st corner 1st could take 1st place), and Ferrari just blatantly ignored it, it's onther example of the 1 rule for ferrari, 1 rule for everyone else that is part of what is ruining F1 - I haven't watched a race in ages, mainly due to the fact that there were probably more overtaking manuvres in the Rally of GB than the last F1 'race'.
Steve
agreed no-one is in any doubt that Ferrari have a Leader and a follower. But I have to disagree that this has always been the case....
Williams have NEVER had team orders.... McLaren didn't have team orders when Senna and Prost were driving and before Shitmaker went to Ferrari they hadn't had team orders for decades.....
Whatever you think, and you are quite entitled to your opinion, the definition of the word "Sport" is fair competetition and letting someone past to win isn't sport whoever does it, or whatever team condones it.
That's why I'm not bothering with it any more, because is isn't a "sport" it's pure stage managed crap....
agreed no-one is in any doubt that Ferrari have a Leader and a follower. But I have to disagree that this has always been the case....
Williams have NEVER had team orders.... McLaren didn't have team orders when Senna and Prost were driving and before Shitmaker went to Ferrari they hadn't had team orders for decades.....
Whatever you think, and you are quite entitled to your opinion, the definition of the word "Sport" is fair competetition and letting someone past to win isn't sport whoever does it, or whatever team condones it.
That's why I'm not bothering with it any more, because is isn't a "sport" it's pure stage managed crap....
quote:
Steve
agreed no-one is in any doubt that Ferrari have a Leader and a follower. But I have to disagree that this has always been the case....
Williams have NEVER had team orders.... McLaren didn't have team orders when Senna and Prost were driving and before Shitmaker went to Ferrari they hadn't had team orders for decades.....
Whatever you think, and you are quite entitled to your opinion, the definition of the word "Sport" is fair competetition and letting someone past to win isn't sport whoever does it, or whatever team condones it.
That's why I'm not bothering with it any more, because is isn't a "sport" it's pure stage managed crap....
Teams have chosen to let their drivers race each other some of the time - you mention some prime examples, but the the way the sport is constituted allows for teams to use one driver to support another and it's always been done. We discussed at length Moss and Fangio when this first happened.
I think that once upon a time this was understood to be the way it worked but it's not what the modern audience (including me) want.
What I'm struggling to come up with is a way in which you could enforce a "no team orders" ban. If there had been a few seconds delay in Barichello's final pitstop we'd all be saying how the poor guy never gets any luck - or maybe speculating about fiddles by Ferrari but you'd never prove anything.
Taking a step back, this is all indicative of the fact tha F1 no longer provides what the crowds want. It may have the ultimate in technical sophistication but we never actually get to see it. When was the last time you saw detailed specs. or even pictures of a current F1 engine? It's all top secret. They may be the fastest cars on the planet but so what? We never see any real racing. If you raced golf carts and speeded up the film it would be more exciting.
The whole circus is a dinosaur and a fundamental rethink is needed if it's ever going to become exciting again. All the dicking about with tyre specs and refueling rigs and limiting testing time is just turd polishing. You need to chuck the formula away and start with a clean sheet.
Until then it will just become, as you rightly say, just so much stage-managed crap.
Roll on the next MotoGP
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guess I am just as bad about Arsenal really although I have never seen them move over and let Spurs through to win anything!!
Except for when we kick your cannon fodder arse!!!
How does that tune go again? Erm... Oh Yeah! "We're Off to wembley 'cos we beat the arsenal, we're off to wembley 'cos we best the arsenal! In the norf london cup they were only runners up! We're off to Wembley 'cos we beat the arsenal!"
Yeah, OK it was back in 192something but thats neither here nor there! Second your comments about Ferrari! The mafia'll be onto them next!
>> Edited by tvradict on Friday 24th May 16:19
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The point was that IIRC this sort of team orders was banned a few years ago (after Coulthard let Hakkinen through as part of a drivers agreement that whoever got to the 1st corner 1st could take 1st place
But that wasn't team orders! It didn't come from the team! That was a gentlemans agreement IIRC which they shook hands upon in the pits before the race! I think that was the year they were destroying the field! I can't remember exactly but I don't think even Ron Dennis knew about that and had a heart attack (not literally) when he saw DC slow down! I think DC said it was done on the pit straight so everyone could see that he was honoring the agreement and that it wasn't a racing move! Still a bit shit though!
Bernie seems happy with team orders, as long as they are done sneakily and underhand (no problem there then). Quote from the man himself:
"The only time I would condone it would be if the world championship hung on it. But Michael is 27 points clear. It was the way they did it that upset me. They could have performed it more elegantly or disguised it".
Arrogant twat.
"The only time I would condone it would be if the world championship hung on it. But Michael is 27 points clear. It was the way they did it that upset me. They could have performed it more elegantly or disguised it".
Arrogant twat.
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