What Track Brakes?
Discussion
So the plan for early 2012 is a full brake upgrade for the M3 Evo.
But what to go for? There are Brembos that we know are good but seem to be twice the price of AP Racing. AP Racing a reputed to be very good and are seemingly a popular choice but what of other makes?
Stop Tech
HiSpec Motorsport
Wilwood
Seems to be very hard to track down any decent comparisons.
But what to go for? There are Brembos that we know are good but seem to be twice the price of AP Racing. AP Racing a reputed to be very good and are seemingly a popular choice but what of other makes?
Stop Tech
HiSpec Motorsport
Wilwood
Seems to be very hard to track down any decent comparisons.
Output Flange said:
Bit of a resurrection, but what are you trying to fix with big brakes?
We're not trying to fix anything but simply want improvement. The kit we have at the moment is as good as you get with (almost) standard equipment. OEM floating disks, refurbished calipers, braided hoses, good quality AP fluids and EBC yellow pads. But they still suffer under heavy use at tracks like Snetterton and Donington which have a couple of really big stops every lap. They never cease to bite and perform but do get spongy when hot with longer pedal travel. At Snett recently we were braking much earlier than we needed to to give the brakes an easier time of it.Our car is beautifully set up now and often one of the fastest cars on a track day and, as our abilities are improving we want better performance from the car.
I have OEM disks and just fitted Blue Stuff pads. Only tested on the road so far but they seem very good.
Can't wait to try it on the track.
My overall plan is to upgrade to AP in a year or so probably.
I noticed that the car had yellow stuff on before but weren't that good on the track.
Can't wait to try it on the track.
My overall plan is to upgrade to AP in a year or so probably.
I noticed that the car had yellow stuff on before but weren't that good on the track.
Spongy brakes is either the fluid boiling or not properly bled - and the E36 brakes are a pain to bleed properly.
See this from another forum:
A common reason for brakes struggling is that you're braking too lightly and for too long, rather than a hard stamp. The long, gentle braking builds up far more heat than a strong, quick stamp. A bigger brake setup will dissipate that heat better, but the better fix is to change your driving style.
I've never been much of a fan of EBC pads. I tried them before I had RS29s and wasn't hugely impressed. As yours is a dedicated track car, before you spend money on a BBK I'd say stick some Pagid pads in and see what you think.
See this from another forum:
someone elsewhere said:
You don't need to hook up the car to a computer persee, there is another way to do it. There is 2 ABS relay's in your car, if you pull the one closest to the aft end of the enginebay and short pins 30 and 87, the ABS valves will cycle. These are always hot and you don't need the car to run for it.
I don't use vacuum bleeders or pressure bleeders anymore myself. I just open the calipers and let it flow out, close the valves when new brake fluid comes out.
Do that once all way around, then cycle ABS for a few minutes, and then do the bleed again, job done.
I found that you get a way better pedal when not using these pressure or vacuum things, at least it does not work for me. It's just that the job takes up quite some time but as it runs very slow you can use the time in between to do something else
I used braided lines, standard OEM discs, 5.1 fluid and RS29s before I "upgraded" to an AP kit, also with RS29s. The difference was almost impossible to tell.I don't use vacuum bleeders or pressure bleeders anymore myself. I just open the calipers and let it flow out, close the valves when new brake fluid comes out.
Do that once all way around, then cycle ABS for a few minutes, and then do the bleed again, job done.
I found that you get a way better pedal when not using these pressure or vacuum things, at least it does not work for me. It's just that the job takes up quite some time but as it runs very slow you can use the time in between to do something else
A common reason for brakes struggling is that you're braking too lightly and for too long, rather than a hard stamp. The long, gentle braking builds up far more heat than a strong, quick stamp. A bigger brake setup will dissipate that heat better, but the better fix is to change your driving style.
I've never been much of a fan of EBC pads. I tried them before I had RS29s and wasn't hugely impressed. As yours is a dedicated track car, before you spend money on a BBK I'd say stick some Pagid pads in and see what you think.
Output Flange said:
I used braided lines, standard OEM discs, 5.1 fluid and RS29s before I "upgraded" to an AP kit, also with RS29s. The difference was almost impossible to tell.
A common reason for brakes struggling is that you're braking too lightly and for too long, rather than a hard stamp. The long, gentle braking builds up far more heat than a strong, quick stamp. A bigger brake setup will dissipate that heat better, but the better fix is to change your driving style.
I've never been much of a fan of EBC pads. I tried them before I had RS29s and wasn't hugely impressed. As yours is a dedicated track car, before you spend money on a BBK I'd say stick some Pagid pads in and see what you think.
I have applied both types of braking. Car was also recently tested by Tim Harvey who reported that the car was great but needed bigger brakes!A common reason for brakes struggling is that you're braking too lightly and for too long, rather than a hard stamp. The long, gentle braking builds up far more heat than a strong, quick stamp. A bigger brake setup will dissipate that heat better, but the better fix is to change your driving style.
I've never been much of a fan of EBC pads. I tried them before I had RS29s and wasn't hugely impressed. As yours is a dedicated track car, before you spend money on a BBK I'd say stick some Pagid pads in and see what you think.
To be fair, some weight loss (which is also on the cards) will help too.
Did he tell you why it needed bigger brakes?
ETA - I realise that sounds facetious - it's not meant to be. It's more trying to avoid you getting the feeling of "why can't I feel the difference my £1600+vat has made" when fitting APs on a trackday car.
RS29s front and rear on standard discs with adequate ventilation should be all you need, and I'd strongly suggest you try that before spending a shedload on a BBK.
ETA - I realise that sounds facetious - it's not meant to be. It's more trying to avoid you getting the feeling of "why can't I feel the difference my £1600+vat has made" when fitting APs on a trackday car.
RS29s front and rear on standard discs with adequate ventilation should be all you need, and I'd strongly suggest you try that before spending a shedload on a BBK.
Edited by Output Flange on Wednesday 4th January 12:13
Output Flange makes a good point. Go to a dealer demo day of any high performance marque and standard cars seem to survive all day long in the hands of hired in demo pro drivers. Then a punter cooks the brakes in five laps! Most top guys break MUCH harder and later than most people can comprehend and are also therefore on the brakes for far far less time. 'Being gentle on the brakes' often equates to being on them much longer which heats them up much more than using them hard but correctly. Not having a pop at OP btw but I've seen it so many times.Of course a £££ big brake kit will 'improve' your car but may genuinely not be necessary. Mind you if you THINK it's helping - then it is!
Having said all that I hurl big brake kits at most of my cars. Nothing wrong with being over prepared/specced is there!
Having said all that I hurl big brake kits at most of my cars. Nothing wrong with being over prepared/specced is there!
I've got APs on my E46 M3, and they are a revelation compared to the stock items. The best mods I've ever done to any car!!
New, however, they come at quite a price ..... I won't sicken you with the deal that I got on my set after they were removed from a CSL that a main dealer was selling (reverted to standard), and then stored in a cupboard until a mate who worked there persuaded them to offload them to me.
There are budget solutions available that utilise Porsche calipers, which I've read are quite effective ... I can't report any personal experiences with them, but they defintely look the part.
Here's a link I found with a quick google.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=965...
New, however, they come at quite a price ..... I won't sicken you with the deal that I got on my set after they were removed from a CSL that a main dealer was selling (reverted to standard), and then stored in a cupboard until a mate who worked there persuaded them to offload them to me.
There are budget solutions available that utilise Porsche calipers, which I've read are quite effective ... I can't report any personal experiences with them, but they defintely look the part.
Here's a link I found with a quick google.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=965...
mat205125 said:
I've got APs on my E46 M3, and they are a revelation compared to the stock items.
Well yes, that's a given.The point here is that they're not a revelation compared to an already upgraded setup. Plus IIRC, you've got them on a full-weight E46 rather than a mildly stripped E36?
If the cost of the upgrade is inconsequential, then go for it - as said above, who doesn't like to be over-spec'd and new shiny bits are always nice.
If you're looking for maximum VFM, try better pads first.
benny.c said:
We've got the AP Competition Brake kit on our E36 and I have to say it's epic. I'm pretty confident that we couldn't stop any quicker, there is plenty of feel and there is no fade whatsoever. Thoroughly recommended.
(Our track car never goes on the road BTW)
agreed.. i have the ap kit on my z4m and its insane... i havent felt better braking ever... fabulous!! parts are very expensive however for replacements!!(Our track car never goes on the road BTW)
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