Just had the red cog

[groucho]

Just got the car out the garage, drove up the road and had the red cog, can't say there has been any problems with it before. I did pull away quite hard and it was still cold, could this do it?

I turned it off and restarted but the red cog was coming on and off for about 3 miles until I stopped. The gears were still changing ok but for one time in which it stayed in third for a short time and wouldn't move. I stopped the car to see somebody and then drove home five miles, and all fine.

Recently it has been throwing an intermittent reversing light fault as well, could this be something to do with it? Had the car for 15 months, it has done less than 26k miles and is a late 2007 model. No LCs by me.

Hope I'm not going to be without the car over Christmas!!!!

Should I take it in?

Edited by groucho on Tuesday 20th December 18:16

[ecain63]

As per another couple of owners with the same sysmptoms i'd be looking at your battery. Its probably the SMG pump struggling to operate with a low current caused by the cold affected battery.

Its normal for BMW batteries to last 3 to 5 years. Mine had a new one last year after similar symptoms. Otherwise are there any other symptoms?

Eddie

[groucho]

Eddie, it has sounded weak on start up of late. No other symptoms I've noticed.

My battery is four years old now.

I hope you're right.

Edited by groucho on Tuesday 20th December 18:19

[ecain63]

There you go mate, might be time for a new cell. At this time of year, because the gearbox is a pump operated manual its always best to let it warm up for 5 mins or so before setting off to allow the system to warm up to running temp. The battery will not charge at idle (needs to be above x amount of revs) but the onboard systems will power up fully after a few mins of the engine running. You shouldnt see any sluggish gear changes or red cogs if you give it a few mins before rolling off the driveway.

Eddie

[andygtt]

I guess this shows that the "red cog of death" isnt actually death at all and is usually something minor or worn out (i.e. clutch)

Its actually making me wonder how many instances of this red cog have actually been minor issues and then overstated for other reasons!

[groucho]

Ok, been out in it again today. in the first five minutes of driving had the red cog again, it moved itself into D and would not come out of third. It did after a minute or so. Drove another 5 miles, no red cog but had an enormous bump whilst turning right, nothing like I have felt before.
Ont he 6 mile journey back after shopping just the yellow cog for a couple of seconds.

Going in Friday.

Typical if left without the car over Christmas.

[eybic]

Did you change/ check the battery?

[groucho]

eybic said:

Did you change/ check the battery?

No, I haven't.

[ecain63]

Sounds like its more than the battery now mate. I hope for your sake its the battery but I'm leaning toward the clutch or pump as the culprit. Normally the next issue is a catastrophic clutch failure and the requirement of the RAC to tow it to a dealer. One sure fire way to find out is to launch it using the LC method and hope the clutch explodes. BMW would have to forfeit a clutch for you as they won't be able to prove against faulty equipment. It's extreme but its worked for a couple of owners.

Eddie

[CSLchappie]

Sounds very similar to a problem I had a few weeks back, software update fixed all of my woes, I don't want to tempt fate or give you false hope but it worked a treat for me, the drive train on my car (45k) feels brand new now, very smooth around town and when caning it.

groucho said:

Ok, been out in it again today. in the first five minutes of driving had the red cog again, it moved itself into D and would not come out of third. It did after a minute or so. Drove another 5 miles, no red cog but had an enormous bump whilst turning right, nothing like I have felt before.
Ont he 6 mile journey back after shopping just the yellow cog for a couple of seconds.

Going in Friday.

Typical if left without the car over Christmas.

[groucho]

ecain63 said:

Sounds like its more than the battery now mate. I hope for your sake its the battery but I'm leaning toward the clutch or pump as the culprit. Normally the next issue is a catastrophic clutch failure and the requirement of the RAC to tow it to a dealer. One sure fire way to find out is to launch it using the LC method and hope the clutch explodes. BMW would have to forfeit a clutch for you as they won't be able to prove against faulty equipment. It's extreme but its worked for a couple of owners.

Eddie

Isn't it covered by warranty then? Dealership said if there was something wrong it would be covered.

[ecain63]

groucho said:

ecain63 said:

Sounds like its more than the battery now mate. I hope for your sake its the battery but I'm leaning toward the clutch or pump as the culprit. Normally the next issue is a catastrophic clutch failure and the requirement of the RAC to tow it to a dealer. One sure fire way to find out is to launch it using the LC method and hope the clutch explodes. BMW would have to forfeit a clutch for you as they won't be able to prove against faulty equipment. It's extreme but its worked for a couple of owners.

Eddie

Isn't it covered by warranty then? Dealership said if there was something wrong it would be covered.

Yes, it could well be covered. But as youre not getting the 'juddering' that signifies a whacked release bearing then it can only be a few things.

The fact that you had an almighty thump when changing gear, the box sticking in gear and a host of different cogs would suggest to me that it might be an actual clutch face issue or even a pump issue.

Software may be at fault but it sounds unlikely given your symptoms. CSL had his cured by having the software rewritten but did he get the banging into gear? Thats a common sign that there is more a miss than the wiggly stuff.

If it is the pump then you can obviously look to the warranty to solve your problem, and they should issue a new clutch etc as the malfunctioning pump will have accelerated the wear on the clutch. They may be able to tell if its the clutch by doing a simple fault scan but in my experience when researching this its normally diagnosed by removing the pump itself which is obviously at your cost unless its deemed to actually be at fault.

If the bias is toward the clutch itself being at fault, again you'll have to risk paying for the removal of the box to assess the damamge / issue. If its not obvious to the tech that its causing the problem then you will have to fork out the £700+ to drop and refit the box. If it is obvious then hey-presto you'll be in line for a new clutch, fly, bearing and bush (ensure they order the correct grease for the bearing / bush).

The reason why is suggested you might want to Launch the car to finish it is off is thus: I've heard of a few owners during my research who had your symptoms or similar and the dealer plain and simple said the clutch was probably worn out and it was not faulty (they'd already ruled out the pump). They could not prove it was faulty as the clutch was still intact and as far as they could see was working fine. However, a couple of those same guys took thier cars back from the dealer, launched it from a standing start and ended up blowing the clutch to smitherenes! When they took the car back to BMW on a low loader they could not fight against the faulty clutch case as the clutch was now no longer intact. Basically what the car owners said was, 'this clutch was obviously faulty as it should not have exploded. The clutch was unsafe etc!' New clutch please.......

So, thats my impression of your clutch / box issue. Next step for you? Firstly i'd get BMW to check the battery asap. Then get them to read off the logged faults. If no solution is found get the software updated. If no solution then press for the pump to be inspected (obvious risk of a bill if its not faulty). If still no solution it can only be one more thing, the clutch. Your choice on that one but i reckon the next big event for you will be a total failure of the clutch and you'll be stranded at xmas when you least want it.


Eddie

[groucho]

When you say judder, think i have been having that but thought it was normal. Pull away slowly and it kangaroos a little. Only on slow pull away though, or in 2nd.

[ecain63]

groucho said:

When you say judder, think i have been having that but thought it was normal. Pull away slowly and it kangaroos a little. Only on slow pull away though, or in 2nd.

Is it like the clutch is flapping against the flywheel for a few seconds? Thats judder.

[andygtt]

ecain63 said:

groucho said:

When you say judder, think i have been having that but thought it was normal. Pull away slowly and it kangaroos a little. Only on slow pull away though, or in 2nd.

Is it like the clutch is flapping against the flywheel for a few seconds? Thats judder.

My clutch doesnt judder even the slightest bit so Im guessing that any kind of judder pulling away in 1st or 2nd isnt normal.

[ecain63]

andygtt said:

ecain63 said:

groucho said:

When you say judder, think i have been having that but thought it was normal. Pull away slowly and it kangaroos a little. Only on slow pull away though, or in 2nd.

Is it like the clutch is flapping against the flywheel for a few seconds? Thats judder.

My clutch doesnt judder even the slightest bit so Im guessing that any kind of judder pulling away in 1st or 2nd isnt normal.

M5's are known to hesitate a little bit from take off as the clutch is applied (a bit like its bogging down), which is normal, but if it feels like the clutch isnt biting immediately and is flapping about then youve got something to be concerned about.

If you imagine your hands are the clutch (left) and flywheel (right), clutch 'judder' is like you are clapping a few times before finally bringing the hands together.

[groucho]

Hard to say for sure but I may have had that on the slight decline exiting our house. First gear deems to grab and let go.

[andygtt]

is the hesitation the clutch being applied or the anti roll brake disengaging?

I get brake judder in the noble due to the agressive clutch but the M5 doesnt do it fortunatelly..... i'm right that the M5 has a multi plate clutch? if so its typical that they hate being excessively slipped, if i do it in the noble I can kill it in 2 minutes by warping the plates.

[ecain63]

Give it a test and see what happens. As a point to note, true 'judder' caused by the bearing should only happen once the car is warmed up and the gearbox has done a bit of work. Try driving round town for half an hour and see what happens. Traffic lights are the best places to test it out.

Eddie

[mat205125]

Change your salmon coloured relay first .... It costs less than a couple of beers, and is worth eliminating before thinking about trying anything IMO.

I wonder how many thousands of pounds dealers have made over the years, that could have been fixed in 5 minutes for £5?