Can a speed limit be TOO low
Discussion
SOUTHPORT AREA for those that know the area.
I was driving down the coast road from Churchtown to Formby at about 9pm last night and I have to say that I believe that the 30 mph speed limit in a NON built up area with NO street lights is illegal.
On one side of the road is a SAND dune and on the other a WIDE pavement, sea wall and the beach. There are double Yellow lines both sides.
Before I contact the Police, Highways agency and Sefton Council to demand it is rectified ASAP I thought I'd see if anyone knows the law.
Was not there a man that got off whewn the court decided that the speed limit was illegal ?
It seems dangerous to have such a stupid speed limit in such a safe area, encouraging numpties to drive too slowly and youngsters to attempt unneccessary overtaking manouvers (can't spell don't care)
I was driving down the coast road from Churchtown to Formby at about 9pm last night and I have to say that I believe that the 30 mph speed limit in a NON built up area with NO street lights is illegal.
On one side of the road is a SAND dune and on the other a WIDE pavement, sea wall and the beach. There are double Yellow lines both sides.
Before I contact the Police, Highways agency and Sefton Council to demand it is rectified ASAP I thought I'd see if anyone knows the law.
Was not there a man that got off whewn the court decided that the speed limit was illegal ?
It seems dangerous to have such a stupid speed limit in such a safe area, encouraging numpties to drive too slowly and youngsters to attempt unneccessary overtaking manouvers (can't spell don't care)
If the Highway Authority have followed the correct procedure to advertise and make a Traffic Regulation Order in accordance with the Road Traffic Regulation Act and the Statutory Instrument (can't remember the number) then the speed limit is legal. It might not be appropriate, but it would be legal.
OR if the road is not a principal road (although it sounds like it is), and the street lights are less than 22 metres (I think it is) apart then it's automatically a 30 anyway, no TRO required.
OR if the road is not a principal road (although it sounds like it is), and the street lights are less than 22 metres (I think it is) apart then it's automatically a 30 anyway, no TRO required.
woodytvr said:
I'd imagine in the day this place is packed with kids on the beach and crossing the road etc. So hence the 30 - Could be wrong though.
There are 3 sections which are 30. The first is adjacent to a pay and display car park and is about a 1/3 mile long. To improve safety on a bank holiday there should be a FENCE to stop children wandering on to main road and there should be traffic refuges to help people cross.
On a bank holiday 30 is too fast and on a monday morning at 6 am it's TOO slow.
The next bit is adjacent to the fair and there is a crossing and 30 seems reasonable. On a bank holiday I'd be doing 20 or less.
The last bit has a dune, a fence and a park and ride into town centre. Those in the know park here cause it's cheaper.
To get to the beach though you have to walk to the crossing at the fair, unless you jump a fence. In this 1/2 mile stretch even on a bank holiday it is free of pedestrians even on pavement but there are no
Street lights and NOW they are talking of putting a Double white down the middle. 40 would be reasonable 50 would be sensible.
Of course a speed limit can be too low. Most of those in my area that have been artificially reduced from NSL to 50 or even 40 are too low.
Oh and you can usually tell when the limits been set too low because there will no doubt be a proliferation of Scameras planted along side!
Rich...
Oh and you can usually tell when the limits been set too low because there will no doubt be a proliferation of Scameras planted along side!
Rich...
If you want to test the legality of this speed limit then it will have come into fruition as a Restricted Road Order made by the Council.
Go to them and ask to see the relevant Speed Order for that piece of unlit road. Note as to what section of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 it was made under.
Apparently in the early 90's Dof T advised County Councils it was acceptable to use Section 82 RTRA to impose these limits whereas Section 84, a far more time consuming and complicated process, was the correct legal route.
So if there is no reference that the order was made under the provisions of Section 84, then it appears there is an illegal limit.
This fact has been used in the past to achieve a case being thrown out at Court.
This is applicable to unlit roads.
DVD
Go to them and ask to see the relevant Speed Order for that piece of unlit road. Note as to what section of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 it was made under.
Apparently in the early 90's Dof T advised County Councils it was acceptable to use Section 82 RTRA to impose these limits whereas Section 84, a far more time consuming and complicated process, was the correct legal route.
So if there is no reference that the order was made under the provisions of Section 84, then it appears there is an illegal limit.
This fact has been used in the past to achieve a case being thrown out at Court.
This is applicable to unlit roads.
DVD
jacko lah said:
<...> with NO street lights <...>.
If there are no street lights, there must be repeaters.
See: www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#repeaters
The distances quoted unfortunately are not the law, so they'd nave to be pretty far out from that to help.
However, the law does say that repeaters shall be placed at regular intervals.
It does not say that repeaters 'shall be placed at regular intervals, except where the road subject to restriction is less than X00 meters'.
So, it appears that, even on a short section, there must be at least one repeater.
tvrgit said:
<...>if the road is not a principal road (although it sounds like it is), and the street lights are less than 22 metres (I think it is) apart then it's automatically a 30 anyway, no TRO required.
Whether or not the road is a principal road is irrelevent. AFAIK, the only exception to a 30 MPH limit automatically applying where there are street[*] lights less than 200 yds. apart is in Scotland where a class 'A' or 'B' road cannot be a restricted road merely by the presence of the street lamps; a speed limit order must be in force on these roads.
[*]Footway lamps are not street lamps.
victormeldrew said:
Suffice to say I have a NIP for speeding on a stratch which I think is pretty debatable as a 20 limit.
Since it seems to be in fashion for councils to introduce 20MPH zones when 20MPH limits would be more appropriate (assuming that a 20MPH limit can ever be appropriate
), many zones seem to be unenforceable because they do not put in the required 'traffic calming' measures every 100m. which a zone requires. >> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Sunday 4th July 02:11
hertsbiker said:
Jack - often limits are too low, but only provable if 85% or more exceed that limit. Only thing is, they won't taken ANY notice whatsoever because they want the money, and don't care about safety at all except for vote-winning.
C
If 85% of people exceed the limit then the police should have no trouble catching them !
If you've ever been to rural Oxfordshire you will know that speed limits can be too low. Half the county is a 50mph limit (sometimes understandable), and the other half is 30mph. I mean, the middle of nowhere, no houses/entrances in sight in either direction.
I think it was MadCop who complained about this a while ago as it mean't when they were doing traffic driver training they had to go further afield. I also believe it is a real sod to get a limit increased again and very unlikely in most cases.
I refuse to go to Oxford due to their anti-car attitude too - it's a bit of a sh1thole with cr4p shopping anyway away from the nice old Uni buildings.
I think it was MadCop who complained about this a while ago as it mean't when they were doing traffic driver training they had to go further afield. I also believe it is a real sod to get a limit increased again and very unlikely in most cases.
I refuse to go to Oxford due to their anti-car attitude too - it's a bit of a sh1thole with cr4p shopping anyway away from the nice old Uni buildings.
Trefor said:Hear hear! I live in Maidenhead and so Oxford is a relativly close drive away but I haven't been there for 10 years as it's politicians are so anti-car. Probabaly a nice ploaqce for a bit of shopping and lunch but I go to Guildford instead! Rich...
I refuse to go to Oxford due to their anti-car attitude too - it's a bit of a sh1thole with cr4p shopping anyway away from the nice old Uni buildings.
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