Extreme cold weather preparation
Discussion
Christmas drinking talk...
My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
Right! Well, first things to sort are your fluids.
Edited to add that the winch will be a good aide. Make sure you take some good waterproof gloves to use it though otherwise your skin will stick to the wire if you have to use it! I managed to get stuck on a smallish back road as they tend to have massive drop off's to the verge which are invisible in the snow!
- Get the coolant freeze temperature checked (not sure about private garages, but main dealers usually have the ability to check what temperature it's good for). If in doubt, just buy some new coolant for all the cars that's rated to below -30 at the least, lower ideally.
- You'll probably need to replace the PAS fluid with low temperature stuff. Most common PAS fluid will freeze below -30deg. Always a bit of a surprise as to why your PAS pump explodes first thing in the morning!
- Ideally get studded tyres. Literally every local up there will drive around on studded winters. The AT tyres will be ok up to a point, but on compacted snow and ice, I think they'll be about as useless as summers. You need the sipes and soft compounds of a winter really.
- Try and leave the cars in a covered/heated car park over night if you can.
- Buy a good ice scraper/ice brush whilst you're on your way. This won't be for the windows...the air is so dry, they don't tend to freeze up. Instead it'll be to clear the snow/ice from the wheels and arches. You won't need it on the roads, but if you go anywhere where there's a decent covering of snow, it get's stuck to the rims and it feels like you're driving on 50p pieces.
- Usual shovel and blankets in the car and plenty of warm clothing. Probably a good sleeping bag as well and food.
- Spots on a roof rack would be good too. A lot of people fit them and it helps massively as you will have zero light from anywhere else!
Edited to add that the winch will be a good aide. Make sure you take some good waterproof gloves to use it though otherwise your skin will stick to the wire if you have to use it! I managed to get stuck on a smallish back road as they tend to have massive drop off's to the verge which are invisible in the snow!
Edited by ArosaMike on Tuesday 3rd January 12:56
Suspect 2x sets of tyres necessary - winters for the journey north, then studs for getting around when you're in the arctic circle - I was in Tromso last new year and the roads (and, scarily, the airport runway!) was packed solid with ice - every car had studded tyres.
Depending on how remote you are going, might be best to check mobile reception, and let someone know your route. The main arctic road north out of Tromso was blocked by an avalanche for a few days while we were there and it's easy to get trapped - literally one road in and out, and if there is 20,000 tons of snow to be cleared......
Depending on how remote you are going, might be best to check mobile reception, and let someone know your route. The main arctic road north out of Tromso was blocked by an avalanche for a few days while we were there and it's easy to get trapped - literally one road in and out, and if there is 20,000 tons of snow to be cleared......
Watchman said:
Christmas drinking talk...
My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
If your going with a Defender, don't chip it. Try and leave thnigs standard. My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
I wouldn't go with a Defender because their heaters aren't up to much and the doors don't seal very well either. Ergo, you will get cold! They are also very expensive too.
Jeep would be my first choice with some decent snow tyres.
Post up pics if you end up going
Keep it simple!
The conditions you'll be in aren't 'tough'... Just COLD!
Remember, you're still driving on roads and they have the infrastructure in place to keep the roads driveable.
Here's what homework you'll have to do:
Select tyres based on your findings above (You'll probably find that the locals run on narrow, studded winter tyres).
Before you go, have the cars properly serviced. This will probably include changing all the fluids for the necessary cold weather versions (assuming that the ambient temperatures are cold enough).
M
The conditions you'll be in aren't 'tough'... Just COLD!
Remember, you're still driving on roads and they have the infrastructure in place to keep the roads driveable.Here's what homework you'll have to do:
- Get details on the average weather conditions for that time of year. Specifically temperatures.
- Get details on the types and grades of fuel available and how to identify at the pumps. Regular diesel waxes up at low temperatures, so they will serve a low-temperature version. This will probably use different additives or even what is effectively Jet A1 (aviation fuel).
- What tyres the locals use!
Select tyres based on your findings above (You'll probably find that the locals run on narrow, studded winter tyres).
Before you go, have the cars properly serviced. This will probably include changing all the fluids for the necessary cold weather versions (assuming that the ambient temperatures are cold enough).
M
ArosaMike said:
....
*Spots on a roof rack would be good too. A lot of people fit them and it helps massively as you will have zero light from anywhere else!
..
Unless you have a white bonnet in which case the scatter from the lights up top lights up the bonnet so brightly you can't see anything in front of it. Well it did for me. Still they looked cool.*Spots on a roof rack would be good too. A lot of people fit them and it helps massively as you will have zero light from anywhere else!
..
magpie215 said:
Radiator blind??
Most modern stuff should be ok without. All the stuff that we test with work up there is run without any mods to the cooling. Only thing that we usually try and do is store them above freezing over night. They will still start if left outside, but diesels in particular properly wheeze and chug in extreme temperatures.balls-out said:
Unless you have a white bonnet in which case the scatter from the lights up top lights up the bonnet so brightly you can't see anything in front of it. Well it did for me. Still they looked cool.
Clearly an '......oh bugger' moment when you switched them on for the first time then?!There and back in a week, in winter, seems extremely optimistic IMO. Wouldn't you be better getting the overnight ferry up to Hamburg or Esbjerg and driving from there? Would save at least 12 hours driving each way and leave you better able to concentrate when you need to.
Best of luck if you do the trip - I've seen the Northern Lights from Tromso and it's well worth the effort!
Best of luck if you do the trip - I've seen the Northern Lights from Tromso and it's well worth the effort!
I'm living in Norway now, and using the MX-5 as my everyday car so unless you're doing a lot of off-roading then you should be fine with a few preparations. The main problem I have had is ground clearance some of the time. However I suspect you will be going some places I tend to avoid in the MX-5!
Liquids - make sure they go down to -40C or so, generally it shouldn't get lower than that. Have a lot of windscreen wash as you'll potentially need a lot if it's cold (so needing to use it concentrated) and a lot of dirt can get thrown up in certain conditions. You can get this in petrol stations but if you're going somewhere remote then go for it.
Winter tyres - go for ones with spikes, and get new ones. With spikes they're not as bad as spikeless tyres, but >5 years old and you'll lose a lot of the benefit due to the rubber hardening. The spikes help a lot on sheet ice. However also be aware they will not help as much in a few conditions. One is fresh snow on ice - the snow sticks to the tyres and stops the spikes digging in, you then slide on the thin layer of snow over the ice. Another is slightly older snow that clumps together - it's strong enough to stop the car digging down to get grip with the spikes but isn't strong enough to stop sliding around. The third is when there is a very little ice on the road surface. There isn't enough ice for the spikes to dig into, but there isn't much grip on the road surface for the rubber. This can form either in two conditions - at the start of winter when there isn't much ice, or when things start warming up - rain then falls on the ground which freezes very quickly. This is basically one of the worse conditions you can get for driving.
Clothes - obvious really, but get good clothes! It's not a problem in the car if it's warm, but if you get stuck or break-down and need to walk anywhere then you'll not be able to survive long in shorts and a t-shirt in -40!
Diesel heater as the engine won't start if things get too cold.
Take jump cables, batteries can go flat quickly in -40! Also it's worth getting a new battery/ checking the fluid as over time they get worse for retaining the charge and will drain more quickly in cold temperatures.
Spades to dig the car out if needs be.
Food for if you get stuck for a few days.
A few important rules for Norwegian roads.
Priority to the right unless the road is a "yellow diamond" road (shown by road signs). It can be a little strange to be on what seems a bigger road but still having to stop to let someone in from the side. It also be a little hard to know if a road is actually a road or parking place/ driveway since some roads are dirt roads.
Quite a lot of main roads/ tunnels/ bridges have toll stations, so it's worth looking into that for costs and perhaps paying before arriving.
Speeding - limits are low and you can't talk yourself out of fines/ possible prison time by good behaviour. General rule is 30%+ above the limit and you'll probably be losing your licence and perhaps getting prison time.
Speed cameras - these are signposted before they come, up to a few km before. However they don't have warning colours like UK cameras.
Drinking - very low limits for drink-driving. Basically don't drink anything if you'll be driving soon, as if you get caught you're in a lot of trouble (very large fines and potentially prison again). I know it can be fines like 3 months wages (before tax) etc.
If you have more questions then just ask away, or drop me a PM.
ETA: when going into tunnels during the cold weather then you'll likely have the outside of the car steaming up so be prepared to turn on the wipers. And I know someone who had the inside steam up when they went into one so try and make sure there isn't too much moisture in the car to start with!
Liquids - make sure they go down to -40C or so, generally it shouldn't get lower than that. Have a lot of windscreen wash as you'll potentially need a lot if it's cold (so needing to use it concentrated) and a lot of dirt can get thrown up in certain conditions. You can get this in petrol stations but if you're going somewhere remote then go for it.
Winter tyres - go for ones with spikes, and get new ones. With spikes they're not as bad as spikeless tyres, but >5 years old and you'll lose a lot of the benefit due to the rubber hardening. The spikes help a lot on sheet ice. However also be aware they will not help as much in a few conditions. One is fresh snow on ice - the snow sticks to the tyres and stops the spikes digging in, you then slide on the thin layer of snow over the ice. Another is slightly older snow that clumps together - it's strong enough to stop the car digging down to get grip with the spikes but isn't strong enough to stop sliding around. The third is when there is a very little ice on the road surface. There isn't enough ice for the spikes to dig into, but there isn't much grip on the road surface for the rubber. This can form either in two conditions - at the start of winter when there isn't much ice, or when things start warming up - rain then falls on the ground which freezes very quickly. This is basically one of the worse conditions you can get for driving.
Clothes - obvious really, but get good clothes! It's not a problem in the car if it's warm, but if you get stuck or break-down and need to walk anywhere then you'll not be able to survive long in shorts and a t-shirt in -40!
Diesel heater as the engine won't start if things get too cold.
Take jump cables, batteries can go flat quickly in -40! Also it's worth getting a new battery/ checking the fluid as over time they get worse for retaining the charge and will drain more quickly in cold temperatures.
Spades to dig the car out if needs be.
Food for if you get stuck for a few days.
A few important rules for Norwegian roads.
Priority to the right unless the road is a "yellow diamond" road (shown by road signs). It can be a little strange to be on what seems a bigger road but still having to stop to let someone in from the side. It also be a little hard to know if a road is actually a road or parking place/ driveway since some roads are dirt roads.
Quite a lot of main roads/ tunnels/ bridges have toll stations, so it's worth looking into that for costs and perhaps paying before arriving.
Speeding - limits are low and you can't talk yourself out of fines/ possible prison time by good behaviour. General rule is 30%+ above the limit and you'll probably be losing your licence and perhaps getting prison time.
Speed cameras - these are signposted before they come, up to a few km before. However they don't have warning colours like UK cameras.
Drinking - very low limits for drink-driving. Basically don't drink anything if you'll be driving soon, as if you get caught you're in a lot of trouble (very large fines and potentially prison again). I know it can be fines like 3 months wages (before tax) etc.
If you have more questions then just ask away, or drop me a PM.
ETA: when going into tunnels during the cold weather then you'll likely have the outside of the car steaming up so be prepared to turn on the wipers. And I know someone who had the inside steam up when they went into one so try and make sure there isn't too much moisture in the car to start with!
Edited by Mx5guy on Tuesday 3rd January 13:40
If it were me, I would be thinking long and hard about that amount of driving in such a short period of time. You are going to be doing upwards of ten hours a day.
Mental! But if that is what you are into...
Me, I would fly and hire something there, possibly with a driver, stay in a nice hotel. Spend a few days.
At the least consider taking a ferry to Denmark, cutting out most of the mundane driving.
Mental! But if that is what you are into...
Me, I would fly and hire something there, possibly with a driver, stay in a nice hotel. Spend a few days.
At the least consider taking a ferry to Denmark, cutting out most of the mundane driving.
In terms of cars, the jeep with decent tyres should be all you need. Make sure the fluids are up to spec for the temperature.
my jeep lived outside through canadian winters(-20c to -30c for most of winter), with no drama. Ran fine on AT tyres, but I didnt go too far from the beaten track, There is no need to bother with block heaters. Obviously you need survival gear. My canadian pals reckon that a simple candle lit in the truck will keep you warm enough not to die, if you get stuck - safer than gassing your self on exhaust fumes if the exhaust is blocked with snow!
my jeep lived outside through canadian winters(-20c to -30c for most of winter), with no drama. Ran fine on AT tyres, but I didnt go too far from the beaten track, There is no need to bother with block heaters. Obviously you need survival gear. My canadian pals reckon that a simple candle lit in the truck will keep you warm enough not to die, if you get stuck - safer than gassing your self on exhaust fumes if the exhaust is blocked with snow!
DatsunDave said:
If it were me, I would be thinking long and hard about that amount of driving in such a short period of time. You are going to be doing upwards of ten hours a day.
Mental! But if that is what you are into...
Me, I would fly and hire something there, possibly with a driver, stay in a nice hotel. Spend a few days.
At the least consider taking a ferry to Denmark, cutting out most of the mundane driving.
This is true about the driving actually. From Oslo to Trondheim it is around 8 hours driving in summer. That only gets you around a 1/3rd of the way up the country, and is on a road that will be cleared more than those in the north (using the E6, which is the main "motorway" type of road over here). If you then go off the beaten track you'll be much slower too.Mental! But if that is what you are into...
Me, I would fly and hire something there, possibly with a driver, stay in a nice hotel. Spend a few days.
At the least consider taking a ferry to Denmark, cutting out most of the mundane driving.
Hiring will be pretty expensive, as cars cost so much here. Petrol is a quite similar price to the UK, perhaps a little more.
The risk is that going up for just *one* day is that it might be cloudy, or something else stopping you enjoying the Aurora Borealis.
Shirley you are better trying to get there quicker somehow (ferry to a more northern part to start with), then get a good few days up there?
As much as it is a trip to challenge you, it'd be pretty naff to not see them. There are better challenges to go on if you don't want to see the Aurora Borealis
Hmmm
Dave
Shirley you are better trying to get there quicker somehow (ferry to a more northern part to start with), then get a good few days up there?
As much as it is a trip to challenge you, it'd be pretty naff to not see them. There are better challenges to go on if you don't want to see the Aurora Borealis
Hmmm
Dave
[quote=ArosaMike]Right! Well, first things to sort are your fluids.
- You'll probably need to replace the PAS fluid with low temperature stuff. Most common PAS fluid will freeze below -30deg. Always a bit of a surprise as to why your PAS pump explodes first thing in the morning!
fareaster]rosaMike said:
Right! Well, first things to sort are your fluids.
Sorry, but I can promise you that it varies on the market and manufacturer. One of the main checks for the cars we send up is which fluid they've got in them. There is specific cold weather PAS fluid put in the systems prior to winter testing. It also doesn't necessarily have to freeze to cause pump failure. A significant increase in viscosity can give the pump enough of a hard time to fail. Hence it's best to check than find your power steering gives up one morning in the middle of nowhere!- You'll probably need to replace the PAS fluid with low temperature stuff. Most common PAS fluid will freeze below -30deg. Always a bit of a surprise as to why your PAS pump explodes first thing in the morning!
Watchman said:
Christmas drinking talk...
My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
Are you and your friends three middle aged men, one short, one tall and one with floppy hair ?My friends and I are considering a little expedition to see the Aurora Borealils but that is really an excuse to challenge ourselves to a long roadtrip to the north or Norway in winter.
I haven't plotted it in any detail yet but we have discussed going in Jan/Feb 2013, and for the trip to last a week - 3 days to get there (staying in convenient lodges etc), 3 days back, and 1 night camping in snow (possibly sleeping in the cars.
We have "trucks":
A TD5 Land Rover with raised suspension, chunky tyres, chipped to ~180/190bhp, front winch
A Mercedes ML 320CDI, standard but for some AT tyres
A Jeep Grand Cherokee, standard but for some winter tyres
A N Other (not sure yet)
The plan is to drive to the Chunnel, and circle round from there up through Denmark, Sweden, Norway. There will be 2 people per truck.
Question: I know manufacturers test their vehicles in cold climates but would we need to prepare them specially for this trip apart from tyres? Would we need fuel tank heaters? Anything else?
Are there restrictions imposed by authorities that might prevent our getting there?
Finally, is this in the right forum? I considered the Off Road one but this will be a road trip, although we expect to be driving in fairly tough conditions.
Fantastic advice - thank you all.
With regards to the "mental" amount of driving - I'm no stranger to long driving days. I've driven all over Europe (West and East), and Scandinavia (to the north of Sweden) but always in the Summer. I have driven 15 hours days before grabbing a shower and some food, and sleeping until the next day. Driving is all we lived for. We have radios for inter-car chat etc.
The Landy is already chipped - it was bought that way and we've little knowledge on how to change it. It's only been in used in the UK but has been utterly reliable these past 3 or 4 years.
All cars will be serviced prior to setting off, and we'll ask the service agents to consider low temperature options for all fluids where they're available.
All three of the known cars (one friend is considering which "truck" to buy hence my not knowing what the 4th car will be) have roof racks. We're not rich but we can all afford a spare set of wheels and tyres however a set of studded tyres will only be used this once and then won't be required again, and I guess we wouldn't get much back on their purchase price on Ebay, so I wonder if chains would be a suitable temporary option. I've never driven on chains but they do look terribly low-tech and insufficuent for anything other than crawling. Clearly even with our love of long driving days, we'll need to get more of a move-on than a crawl.
And regarding the small window of opportunity to view the Northern Lights... well, yes that is a concern. I agree that even though we're using that as an excuse for the trip, it *would* be a shame not to see them. I will investigate alternative transport methods. There used to be a ferry fron Newcastle to Christiansand (sp?), the Southern-most tip of Norway but I understand that has ceased to operate now. That used to be a 24 hour crossing though and I really don't want to spend that amount of time on a boat, especially in Winter.
I would consider a shorter crossing if it saved more road time than we spent on the boat itself but I'd rather drive than sail if the time was equal.
Thanks again for everyone's input. My next action is to gain some more commitment from the other guys then start planning a route and route options in detail.
With regards to the "mental" amount of driving - I'm no stranger to long driving days. I've driven all over Europe (West and East), and Scandinavia (to the north of Sweden) but always in the Summer. I have driven 15 hours days before grabbing a shower and some food, and sleeping until the next day. Driving is all we lived for. We have radios for inter-car chat etc.
The Landy is already chipped - it was bought that way and we've little knowledge on how to change it. It's only been in used in the UK but has been utterly reliable these past 3 or 4 years.
All cars will be serviced prior to setting off, and we'll ask the service agents to consider low temperature options for all fluids where they're available.
All three of the known cars (one friend is considering which "truck" to buy hence my not knowing what the 4th car will be) have roof racks. We're not rich but we can all afford a spare set of wheels and tyres however a set of studded tyres will only be used this once and then won't be required again, and I guess we wouldn't get much back on their purchase price on Ebay, so I wonder if chains would be a suitable temporary option. I've never driven on chains but they do look terribly low-tech and insufficuent for anything other than crawling. Clearly even with our love of long driving days, we'll need to get more of a move-on than a crawl.
And regarding the small window of opportunity to view the Northern Lights... well, yes that is a concern. I agree that even though we're using that as an excuse for the trip, it *would* be a shame not to see them. I will investigate alternative transport methods. There used to be a ferry fron Newcastle to Christiansand (sp?), the Southern-most tip of Norway but I understand that has ceased to operate now. That used to be a 24 hour crossing though and I really don't want to spend that amount of time on a boat, especially in Winter.
I would consider a shorter crossing if it saved more road time than we spent on the boat itself but I'd rather drive than sail if the time was equal.
Thanks again for everyone's input. My next action is to gain some more commitment from the other guys then start planning a route and route options in detail.
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