Heel-toe... can you?

[I Am Milk]

Yes,

Yes,

No,

Uhmm.


I do it all the time, smooths out the ride and I enjoy it.

[Pints]

I don't.
Someone will probably be along shortly to confiscate my PH membership, now that I've admitted that.

[LandingSpot]

RS133 said:

I've recently been trying to refine my technique, so I can heel-to reliably and smoothly. It's a lot harder than I anticipated!

I thought I'd seen the end of un-intentional kangerooing


So just out of interest:

• Can you heel-toe?

• Do you heel-toe regularly?

• Do you see its as a track-only/racing technique?

• Do you think it should be use only when making progress, or should every braking opportunity be coupled with heel-toe downshifts?

Yes
Tes
No
Sometimes.

Rev-matching is also a good technique to use. I use this one primarily for getting the gear right before turning in as I can be doing steering and accelerating out of the corner. H&T is useful if I am finding myself still braking when I should already have the gear and I can use this technique to still get the gear before turning in.

Slow in fast out FTW.

HTH

[VX Foxy]

Yes
No
Yes
Um

[mollytherocker]

Try it without braking first, i.e; rev match on your down shifts. Once you can do this smoothly, try and do it whilst holding a steady braking pressure. You dont actually heel and toe in most modern cars, just position your right foot between the acc and brake. Start braking, and then angle your foot down towards the acc pedal to rev match between gears.

Seriously, once you 'get it', you will never go back. It is so satisfying. And faster. And easier on the whole drivetrain. And it sounds great!

MTR

[Eighteeteewhy]

RS133 said:

• Can you heel-toe?

• Do you heel-toe regularly?

• Do you see its as a track-only/racing technique?

• Do you think it should be used only when making progress/hooning, or should braking always be coupled with heel-toe downshifts?

• Left foot brake

• Yes

• No

• Yes

• ?

• Yes

[B'stard Child]

RS133 said:

I've recently been trying to refine my technique, so I can heel-to reliably and smoothly. It's a lot harder than I anticipated!

I thought I'd seen the end of un-intentional kangerooing


So just out of interest:

• Can you heel-toe?

• Do you heel-toe regularly?

• Do you see its as a track-only/racing technique?

• Do you think it should be used only when making progress/hooning, or should braking always be coupled with heel-toe downshifts?

Yes

Yees

No

Depends what gives better control

Pedal set up is something that I've found really impacts the ability to do this

[The Moose]

Yes
Yes
No
Yes

HTH

[davepoth]

Yes
Yes
No
I always try and heel and toe if I'm looking for a gear when on the open road; pulling up to traffic lights in residential areas at 3am it seems a little anti social.

[motorsportbeng]

racing a caterham means I can and have to especially in the wet, and I do regularly on the road but only because the synchro's on 2nd and 3rd in my 125k miles fiesta are shot. when driving my dads newer estate I don't feel it necessary with the progress you make on the road. saying that when i was being trained to pass my IAM they encourage blips between down changes and that is advice from the police drivers however Im not so sure on their braking and gear change technique anyway

[Baryonyx]

I can do it, though I rarely use it on the road. As with all techniques, I could always get better at it too. Whilst it's a useful technique, it wasn't something that was taught to me on a driving course that was pretty impactive on my whole drive. I dedicated myself to that three week course and really overhauled my whole drive it, and found I was able to make faster, safer progress afterwards as a result. That said, hell-toeing was not included and I rarely use it on the road. Whilst it has some good applications (like on a downhill where you'd usually overlap braking and gearchange) it's not something that has a massive impact on the drive overall.

That said, 'blipping' downshifts was a big matter on the course, something I'd be practiced myself in my MX5. The blip that was taught was a clutch in-blip-clutch out type of rev matching that was used mid gear change. I preferred to double de-clutch my shifts and I was allowed to do this on the course, which meant that my gearshifts were taking miliseconds longer (because I let the clutch out and put the car in neutral for a split second before blipping and shifting gear) but I was planning my changes better as a result as I was placing a lot of importance on them. And once you've got your position and speed right, it feels quite natural.

I did raise the issue of heel-toeing, and would it really be of benefit when trying to make maximum progress on the road? I was advised that it would be of use on the track, where you can see round the next bend, you're sure of the camber and surface and you know whats coming, but on the road it wasn't so useful. Because you're overlapping braking and gear changing you're not only destabilising the car, you're often 'off power' as corners develop. Personally, I'd rather be in the right gear with the choice to power on or brake when a previously unseen hazard comes into play. It was at that point, taking this advice from a professional, that I decided I wouldn't include heel toe in much of my driving. I'd use it on track, but even then I suspect it may feel slightly odd considering my usual method of making maximum progress does not include it.



I suspect a greater issue than your ability to do it will be your car's ability to do it. In my Focus and S60 the throttle response was just to slow and the pedal positioning wasn't ideal for it. In my MR2 and my MX5 it felt quite easy and natural, though as mentioned, my drive was better and faster without it.

[z4chris99]

No

[lankybob]

I try and do it all the time. As with someone else, it wasn't taught to me when learning to drive but I learned the technique from here and youtube and have put into practice when driving on the road. It makes things so much smoother... When you get it right.

I get the dreaded kangarooing when I have got it wrong but as with everything practice makes perfect.

I also rev match when not braking too.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Since,
a) most modern cars are designed with pedals laid out to reduce the risk of someone accidentally pressing the brake and accelerator at the same time, and
c) some modern cars shut down engine power as soon as the brake pedal is touched

it seeems to be something for the string-backed gloves, pipe and slippers brigade or those struggling for other conversation in the pub.

[mollytherocker]

Baryonyx said:

Because you're overlapping braking and gear changing you're not only destabilising the car, you're often 'off power' as corners develop.

Its exactly the opposite of that. The main point of H&T is to stabilise and balance the car on corner entry. Gear changes become seamless. You are 'on power' for more of the time.

MTR

[B'stard Child]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Since,
a) most modern cars are designed with pedals laid out to reduce the risk of someone accidentally pressing the brake and accelerator at the same time, and
c) some modern cars shut down engine power as soon as the brake pedal is touched

it seeems to be something for the string-backed gloves, pipe and slippers brigade or those struggling for other conversation in the pub.

Or people who don't like driving modern cars.......

[ginettajoe]

Baryonyx said:

I can do it, though I rarely use it on the road. As with all techniques, I could always get better at it too. Whilst it's a useful technique, it wasn't something that was taught to me on a driving course that was pretty impactive on my whole drive. I dedicated myself to that three week course and really overhauled my whole drive it, and found I was able to make faster, safer progress afterwards as a result. That said, hell-toeing was not included and I rarely use it on the road. Whilst it has some good applications (like on a downhill where you'd usually overlap braking and gearchange) it's not something that has a massive impact on the drive overall.

That said, 'blipping' downshifts was a big matter on the course, something I'd be practiced myself in my MX5. The blip that was taught was a clutch in-blip-clutch out type of rev matching that was used mid gear change. I preferred to double de-clutch my shifts and I was allowed to do this on the course, which meant that my gearshifts were taking miliseconds longer (because I let the clutch out and put the car in neutral for a split second before blipping and shifting gear) but I was planning my changes better as a result as I was placing a lot of importance on them. And once you've got your position and speed right, it feels quite natural.

I did raise the issue of heel-toeing, and would it really be of benefit when trying to make maximum progress on the road? I was advised that it would be of use on the track, where you can see round the next bend, you're sure of the camber and surface and you know whats coming, but on the road it wasn't so useful. Because you're overlapping braking and gear changing you're not only destabilising the car, you're often 'off power' as corners develop. Personally, I'd rather be in the right gear with the choice to power on or brake when a previously unseen hazard comes into play. It was at that point, taking this advice from a professional, that I decided I wouldn't include heel toe in much of my driving. I'd use it on track, but even then I suspect it may feel slightly odd considering my usual method of making maximum progress does not include it.



I suspect a greater issue than your ability to do it will be your car's ability to do it. In my Focus and S60 the throttle response was just to slow and the pedal positioning wasn't ideal for it. In my MR2 and my MX5 it felt quite easy and natural, though as mentioned, my drive was better and faster without it.

The course was obviously something to do with IAM, or a police course!! Of what relevance seeing through the next bend makes, I can't imagine, ...... no wonder there are so many accidents. Did you demand your money back???

[Baryonyx]

mollytherocker said:

Its exactly the opposite of that. The main point of H&T is to stabilise and balance the car on corner entry. Gear changes become seamless. You are 'on power' for more of the time.

MTR

For your drive, that may not be the case. As I mentioned, I was taught to get the speed right prior to the hazard then select my gear. On the road, where you can't see round every corner, I prefer this method as I'm back on the power at the right time, even if it seems like I brake a little earlier than someone heel-toeing or someone who isn't rev matching at all. I like having the car all set to negotiate a corner and keeping the phases seperate. It works for me, you may prefer to do something else. YMMV.

On a track it's undoubtedly the way forward, but on the road maybe not so much, especially if you're pressing on and looking to make maximum safe progress.

[ginettajoe]

Baryonyx said:

For your drive, that may not be the case. As I mentioned, I was taught to get the speed right prior to the hazard then select my gear. On the road, where you can't see round every corner, I prefer this method as I'm back on the power at the right time, even if it seems like I brake a little earlier than someone heel-toeing or someone who isn't rev matching at all. I like having the car all set to negotiate a corner and keeping the phases seperate. It works for me, you may prefer to do something else. YMMV.

On a track it's undoubtedly the way forward, but on the road maybe not so much, especially if you're pressing on and looking to make maximum safe progress.

You cannot adapt road driving to driving on a track, but you can certainly adapt track driving to driving on the road!! It is purely the physics of moving a piece of metal around a piece of tarmac, it doesn't matter whether it is a road or a race track!!! The same physics apply!!

[Baryonyx]

RS133 said:

As someone has already said, the whole point of heel toe is to stabilise the car whilst changing gear under braking. Heel and toe also sets you up for corners as it should be done with braking i.e before a corner and never in it, giving you optimum throttle response throughout the corner.

Getting into pedantry/advanced driving forum stuff here, but as I have mentioned, I make braking phase a little earlier to account for gear change and I'm set to accelerate from there. When heel toeing, effectively overlapping two phases, the braking can be left a little later. But I prefer a safer, backed off braking zone with time assess incoming info and get the car through the corner rather than heel-toeing and getting two phases done at once. As I have mentioned earlier, I find those miliseconds quite useful for assessing a variety of things and taking the car through with maximum stability. Wheel heel toeing I could be off power and in the middle of a gearshift when I spot a pothole that needs avoiding, or some such hazard as this. I'd rather drive in a slightly more linear manner to keep my view up, keep my hands free and keep the power on, or at least have more control over when it's on or off. As I mentioned above, you may prefer to heel toe in situations where I'd brake and double de-clutch a shift. Like I say, it's something I enjoyed doing but I found that when I came to appraise my driving and then see where I could improve, I could make faster, smoother and safer progress without it.