E36 M3 Evolution: Too old now??
Discussion
I was pretty much set on either an E39 540i Sport (although it's bigger than I'd like, but has a V8) or an E46 330Ci Sport as my next car. I've owned an E36 328i Sport in the past and absolutely loved it. It felt so balanced, so controllable.
I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip? Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power? I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip? Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power? I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
I thought quoted bhp figures weren't at the wheels anyway - could be wrong though. An e36 will feel dated compared to a modern BMW, however still better quality than most newer French cars. They are getting on now and do have a dubious image to some so the key is to keep it absolutely OEM to avoid looking a knob. Personally I love them and sold my first M3 Evo for a 330i Sport which was no where near as quick and, whilst a very capable machine, was somewhat dull to drive so I bought another M3 Evo.
I wouldn't worry too much about bhp figures, just get a well looked after, low owner example and do budget at least £1k to get things fixed - easily more depending on how fussy you are. Apart from any obvious faults to fix I would be spending money on bushes, supension, and a 4WA.
The more expensive common problems are broken exhaust flexi joint, air con condenser and diff seals. There are lots of other little niggles that can soon add up, I've spent £1500 in 6 months and will be spending another £1k in the next few weeks which should see the car tip-top for a road trip to Italy in the spring. It WILL be expensive to run unless you can get a car that's had a lot of work done already, however depreciation is likely to be minimal.
I wouldn't worry too much about bhp figures, just get a well looked after, low owner example and do budget at least £1k to get things fixed - easily more depending on how fussy you are. Apart from any obvious faults to fix I would be spending money on bushes, supension, and a 4WA.
The more expensive common problems are broken exhaust flexi joint, air con condenser and diff seals. There are lots of other little niggles that can soon add up, I've spent £1500 in 6 months and will be spending another £1k in the next few weeks which should see the car tip-top for a road trip to Italy in the spring. It WILL be expensive to run unless you can get a car that's had a lot of work done already, however depreciation is likely to be minimal.
Ensure the car has a full and documented history and budget 1-2k on top of purchase pirce for a fighting fund for any niggles you might want to sort as has been mentioned and go for it. We use out M3 for track now but one of our group has just bought an M3 evo as a daily as he likes the track car so much. I still run another e36 as a daily but it's done less than 40k so still seems new!
TroubledSoul said:
I was pretty much set on either an E39 540i Sport (although it's bigger than I'd like, but has a V8) or an E46 330Ci Sport as my next car. I've owned an E36 328i Sport in the past and absolutely loved it. It felt so balanced, so controllable.
I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip? Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power? I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
I've just picked up an E36 as a runaround (not an M3 this time) and it still feels refined enough to me - my last car was a 540i, and currently have a Jag XJ, so in that company it's doing OK! Wouldn't have any qualms taking it on a long roadtrip, either.I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip? Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power? I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
The book figure of 321bhp is a misprint, should really be 316bhp. Most healthy cars will make over 300bhp. 270bhp at the wheels is either very healthy, modified or a fib.
The valve clearances should be done at every Inspection service, but almost never are. As a minimum, should be done at each Insp2, so if you can't see a receipt for it being done, add it to the list of jobs.
Throttle cables are easy to check, and often only need adjusting - a 20 second job.
Because of the age they are, you will want to see lots of evidence of things having been replaced recently - bushes, shocks, clutch, brakes etc. Also nice to see fluids having been changed in the not too distant past, including brake fluid, diff and gearbox oil.
An essential modification is a braided clutch hose. Lots will have this fitted now. If it doesn't, stick it near the top of the list.
Otherwise, get out there and drive a few. Don't judge adverts by price - a £6k car can be more borked than a £4k car. You'll need to put the legwork in to look at a few and judge them individually.
TroubledSoul said:
I was pretty much set on either an E39 540i Sport (although it's bigger than I'd like, but has a V8) or an E46 330Ci
Sport as my next car. I've owned an E36 328i Sport in the past and absolutely loved it. It felt so balanced, so controllable.
I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my
must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip?
Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have
read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched
throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power?
I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal
amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
I've had my Evo now since 2004 and i have to say that i love it just as much today as i did the day that i bought it all those years ago. Sport as my next car. I've owned an E36 328i Sport in the past and absolutely loved it. It felt so balanced, so controllable.
I've got this niggling though. If I buy a 330Ci, I'll know I could have bought the older M car, and ticked a major box on my
must own list. But I like the more modern looks of the E46. And the fact it's a newer car. Budget will be sub £5k so an E46 M3 is out.
Will an E36 feel too dated now, or would it still be just as much fun as when new? Could it take a 3000 mile european roadtrip?
Is there anything I should be looking out for if I do go for one? I'd be looking to do a suspension refresh and also I have
read things about cars not making their quoted 321bhp power, due to needing the valve clearances set or having a stretched
throttle cable, meaning 100% throttle is never achieved. How accurate is this? Should it be difficult to find one with full power?
I saw one in the classifieds which I loved, but it said 270bhp@the wheels. That's way down on power, else it's suffering abnormal
amounts of transmission loss surely?
If I got one, I'd want to use it properly but cherish it, keep it original bar alternative BMW wheels etc.
Does it feel dated? Well, if we're honest thats subjective. I've driven a (brand spanking new at the time) e46 M3 - it was my mate whom i bought mine from - and although it was a nicer and more modern car, i felt like it lacked a little of the raw-ness of the Evo. Inside mine still feels comfy and quiet (excluding the noise now from the DaveF and the Scorpion tailpipe) and material wise, again, it doesn't feel that dated. Performance wise, honestly, there was nothing in it at all. Yes it does lack things like a built in sat-nav, massaging seats and reversing cameras but, to me these are things that i'm not interested in anyway.
Could you take it on a 3000 mile road trip? Well, mine has done a 5000klm road trip around the alps in a single week. Has done a good number of laps around the `Ring, trackdays at Spa, and tens of thousands of miles on the continent. Actually come to think of it, i probably do around on average 2.5k miles a year on the continent in the Tardis (as its become more affectionately known). In June last year i drove all the way down to Geneva on a Saturday morning. Had a night out there with a couple of mates, got up on Sunday and drove to Italy via the Simplon pass to Genoa.
Then returned via the Great St Brenard pass back to Geneva. Then drove the 670 miles home on Monday morning in 7 hours. It really is a fantastic machine.
A suspension refreash is a wise move. I'd be looking at new bushes all round on any car of that age with considerable milage. In fact, this is on my list of things to do. I think i'm going to opt for a complete poly bush set up just to tighten it up a good bit.
The cars regularly don't make the quoted power but, i had mine on the rollers at Charlies place (Vixpy1) and it produced a surprising and rather healthy 317bhp. Which if were honest, is pretty good for a 1998 car with in excess (at the time) 145k under it's belt. It's now done just north of 155k and still runs like a turbine. Oh and not forgetting that the engine has never been apart !
The 270bhp at the wheels sounds a little optimistic if i'm honest. Mine produced (if my memory serves me correctly) something like 258 at the wheels.
In short i don't think you'll be dissapointed with one. I absolutely love mine and honestly couldn't imagine a day without it. I'll never consider selling up. The e36 M3 Evo really has got to be one of THE BIGGEST performance barginas out there. But, with anything this affordable and this old, buy wisely. Many may have seen the wrong side of a country lane hedge or fallen into the wrong hands of people that couldn't really afford to run one correctly. They are not that cheep to run (parts wise) but, if you can work on the car your self obviously you'll greatly reduce the running cost. Check out my blog on my profile to give you an idea.
Hope some of that is of help to you sir.
M3J.
Edited by M3John on Friday 6th January 15:23
The E36's interior does feel dated relative to E46 and E9* series but imho this matters little once on the move tbh and in many ways I think this is a benefit. The EVO's steering, clutch action and gearbox combine to make the EVO involving in a way many newer cars fail to be. Find a well loved and maintained for EVO and they're still special. My advice would be buy privately and find an 'enthusiast' owner who knows EVOs well and as Output Flange says below drive plenty.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Output Flange said:
Otherwise, get out there and drive a few. Don't judge adverts by price - a £6k car can be more borked than a £4k car. You'll need to put the legwork in to look at a few and judge them individually.
I had planned to sell my EVO as soon I got my 335i a couple of years ago but EVOs get under your skin I didn't want to part with it. Sadly I only found time for 1500 miles last year so I'll be selling when the insurance is up for renewall at the end of the month http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Cheers guys, some very helpful info there. I think maybe I have to own an M3 Evo before I worry about buying something newer. If it feels half as involving as my MR2 Turbo did, I know I'll enjoy it. I just want to know I can relax when cruising too.
Out of interest, what do people tend to go for with replacement suspension setups? OEM shocks or Bilstein items perhaps?
Out of interest, what do people tend to go for with replacement suspension setups? OEM shocks or Bilstein items perhaps?
Buy the best that you can afford and you won't be disappointed. So much car and performance for the money. As capable as destroying continents in one leap as they are of thrilling on a Sunday blast.
Does you sub £5k budget include £1k contingency fund? Personally, I'd look for cars £5k+ in the current market. You should be able to get a well cherished example for that. Correct suspension is a must to properly appreciate the car. I replaced mine with Eibach coilovers, Eibach ARBs, cross-brace and all the mounts and bushes, drop links etc for about a grand. It drives superbly and is as happy on a long distance motorway schlep (easy 30+mpg at 80+ in 6th), quiet, comfortable and refined, as it is when you take it by the scruff of the neck and let the glorious straight-six sing all the way to the redline.
I'd imagine that a bad one would be an expensive nightmare but you'll continue to appreciate a good one long after the cost has been forgotten. Parts can be expensive (tyres, brakes etc) but they are rare consumables and they are by no means fragile or unreliable cars. Just keep on top of the jobs and don't skimp on preventative maintenance.
With regards to being dated, mine has: dual climate control, electric sunroof, rear parking sensors, electric mirrors, cruise control, full leather interior, deep pile carpet, all the electrics/lights work, good quality plastics with no squeaks or rattles.
I don't think you can really compare M and non-M cars, regardless of age.
Does you sub £5k budget include £1k contingency fund? Personally, I'd look for cars £5k+ in the current market. You should be able to get a well cherished example for that. Correct suspension is a must to properly appreciate the car. I replaced mine with Eibach coilovers, Eibach ARBs, cross-brace and all the mounts and bushes, drop links etc for about a grand. It drives superbly and is as happy on a long distance motorway schlep (easy 30+mpg at 80+ in 6th), quiet, comfortable and refined, as it is when you take it by the scruff of the neck and let the glorious straight-six sing all the way to the redline.
I'd imagine that a bad one would be an expensive nightmare but you'll continue to appreciate a good one long after the cost has been forgotten. Parts can be expensive (tyres, brakes etc) but they are rare consumables and they are by no means fragile or unreliable cars. Just keep on top of the jobs and don't skimp on preventative maintenance.
With regards to being dated, mine has: dual climate control, electric sunroof, rear parking sensors, electric mirrors, cruise control, full leather interior, deep pile carpet, all the electrics/lights work, good quality plastics with no squeaks or rattles.
I don't think you can really compare M and non-M cars, regardless of age.
TroubledSoul said:
Cheers guys, some very helpful info there. I think maybe I have to own an M3 Evo before I worry about buying something newer. If it feels half as involving as my MR2 Turbo did, I know I'll enjoy it. I just want to know I can relax when cruising too.
Out of interest, what do people tend to go for with replacement suspension setups? OEM shocks or Bilstein items perhaps?
Depends whether you want a GT or a Sports car. Replace with OEM for a softer, less focused ride. Uprate for a more responsive, sportier ride. Bilstein are highly regarded but work out pretty expensive. I think that the 4 shocks are over £600, last time I looked. I wanted the ability to adjust the height so I went for the Eibach coilovers (basically KW V1) which I got for about £700. There are lots of options. Factor in replacing all the mounts, bushes, drop links etc and a 4WA also. Ride is obviously firmer put not unpleasant. Always a compromise to be made. If you want a more complient ride but improved handling, stick with OEM shocks and springe but fit uprated ARB to reduce body roll.Out of interest, what do people tend to go for with replacement suspension setups? OEM shocks or Bilstein items perhaps?
TEKNOPUG said:
Depends whether you want a GT or a Sports car. Replace with OEM for a softer, less focused ride. Uprate for a more responsive, sportier ride. Bilstein are highly regarded but work out pretty expensive. I think that the 4 shocks are over £600, last time I looked. I wanted the ability to adjust the height so I went for the Eibach coilovers (basically KW V1) which I got for about £700. There are lots of options. Factor in replacing all the mounts, bushes, drop links etc and a 4WA also. Ride is obviously firmer put not unpleasant. Always a compromise to be made. If you want a more complient ride but improved handling, stick with OEM shocks and springe but fit uprated ARB to reduce body roll.
Past experience with other cars has always told me that coilovers are too hard, especially for anything long distance. 4WA is something I always insist on and I usually try to use a centre with the Hunter Hawkeye kit. Shocks, drop links, ARBs, top mounts I can fit myself, no problem. I did a lot of work on my old 328i Sport, and have done on subsequent cars. That car ran new OEM Bilstein shocks with new Eibach Pro Kit springs and was a delight to drive. As far as colours go, I want Estoril Blue or Techno Violet.
TroubledSoul said:
Past experience with other cars has always told me that coilovers are too hard, especially for anything long distance. 4WA is something I always insist on and I usually try to use a centre with the Hunter Hawkeye kit. Shocks, drop links, ARBs, top mounts I can fit myself, no problem. I did a lot of work on my old 328i Sport, and have done on subsequent cars. That car ran new OEM Bilstein shocks with new Eibach Pro Kit springs and was a delight to drive.
As far as colours go, I want Estoril Blue or Techno Violet.
There are a range of Bilstein shocks to choose from. From my experience, anything other their OE replacement range will be pretty stiff as they all use mono-tube construction. I live in central London and my setup does high light the shocking state of the roads. But out of town, on motorways and a-roads, they are well suited. There are no clunks or bangs and the car is always stable and composed, regardless of conditions. Suspension and ride will only be as good as the weakest component so provided you are meticulous with replacing parts, you shouldn't have a problem.As far as colours go, I want Estoril Blue or Techno Violet.
Perhaps something like this : http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3329840.htm
It's cheap enough to factor in a manual conversion and has obviously had some money spent recently.
The logical option would be this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3327711.htm
Personally I'm not keen on Boston but it's certainly been well kept.
It's cheap enough to factor in a manual conversion and has obviously had some money spent recently.
The logical option would be this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3327711.htm
Personally I'm not keen on Boston but it's certainly been well kept.
TroubledSoul said:
Past experience with other cars has always told me that coilovers are too hard, especially for anything long distance. 4WA is something I always insist on and I usually try to use a centre with the Hunter Hawkeye kit. Shocks, drop links, ARBs, top mounts I can fit myself, no problem. I did a lot of work on my old 328i Sport, and have done on subsequent cars. That car ran new OEM Bilstein shocks with new Eibach Pro Kit springs and was a delight to drive.
Cheap coilovers are rubbish and to be avoided.It'll really depend on what you want to do with the car - if it is only a road car, don't bother with coilovers. I also wouldn't polybush a road car, and would think twice about doing it to a track car, too.
Uprated Bilsteins with a slight drop is all you need for the road.
Good advice above, I loved my M3 Evo Coupe, possibly the best "do it all" car I've owned, and definitely my favourite engine. They feel dated, interior-wise, compared with even an E39 M5, but they really are lovely to drive and come with lots of nice toys.
As to European jaunts, my (standard) 120k+ miler did a 12-day, 2500 mile European road trip, including autobahn, mountain passes and half a dozen 'ring laps and was just superb whereever it went, even averaging 28mpg and not using a drop of any fluids. Superb machines, not cheap to maintain (parts prices as mentioned above) but buy a good one and you'll be laughing. Get it done
As to European jaunts, my (standard) 120k+ miler did a 12-day, 2500 mile European road trip, including autobahn, mountain passes and half a dozen 'ring laps and was just superb whereever it went, even averaging 28mpg and not using a drop of any fluids. Superb machines, not cheap to maintain (parts prices as mentioned above) but buy a good one and you'll be laughing. Get it done
The good info just keeps coming. I think I'm genuinely sold. I DO prefer the looks of the E46 M3, but I just can't afford one, so the E36 it will be.
Replacing parts will be thorough. I want it to drive like new and be the best it can be. Ball Joints, track rod ends, steering rack ends, shocks, top mounts, drop links, ARBs, the lot will be done.
Replacing parts will be thorough. I want it to drive like new and be the best it can be. Ball Joints, track rod ends, steering rack ends, shocks, top mounts, drop links, ARBs, the lot will be done.
TroubledSoul said:
The good info just keeps coming. I think I'm genuinely sold. I DO prefer the looks of the E46 M3, but I just can't afford one, so the E36 it will be.
Replacing parts will be thorough. I want it to drive like new and be the best it can be. Ball Joints, track rod ends, steering rack ends, shocks, top mounts, drop links, ARBs, the lot will be done.
Sounds like a good list - find a decent specialist too - let us know where you're based and I'm sure someone can recommend somewhere. Also, join e36coupe.com (it's currently down, but an excellent resource). Let the test drives begin! Replacing parts will be thorough. I want it to drive like new and be the best it can be. Ball Joints, track rod ends, steering rack ends, shocks, top mounts, drop links, ARBs, the lot will be done.
ETA - Just seen the one you're referring to in the PH Classified - looks nice actually, apart from the non-staggered alloys. Mine was in Mora Metallic as well, it's a lovely colour, and definitely rather rare!
Further ETA - As above, when testing, don't trust any car where the seller says "air con needs regassing" - it's most likely the condensor or other aircon parts. Not cheap.
Edited by _Neal_ on Friday 6th January 16:03
Edited by _Neal_ on Friday 6th January 16:06
RTABs are the first to do, as they're almost always shot. The Turner limiting kit is a decent option to save having to stick polybushes in.
Also, if at any point you decide to drop the diff, BMSport.com (0208 304 9797 as their website doesn't seem to work) do a diff mount reinforcement kit that's worth fitting for the £50 it costs.
Also, if at any point you decide to drop the diff, BMSport.com (0208 304 9797 as their website doesn't seem to work) do a diff mount reinforcement kit that's worth fitting for the £50 it costs.
Awesome. Cheers for that.
I love the colour of this but it causes a bit of a conflict. It has chavved bits, yet the history and condition look great:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3521786.htm
Quite like this too, but would take his BHP claims witha pinch of salt:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2759503.htm
I love the colour of this but it causes a bit of a conflict. It has chavved bits, yet the history and condition look great:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3521786.htm
Quite like this too, but would take his BHP claims witha pinch of salt:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2759503.htm
Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff