How long till a ban on Home Mechanics?
Discussion
I was pondering the other day how long it will be till home maintenance on cars is banned in this country.
Already in the last ten years we have had a ban on DIY'ers messing with gas installations, and more recently restrictions on home wiring.
On the subject of cars, the slow but progressive tightening of restrictions on IVA and kit car, even in some europeans countries kit cars can no longer me made. Europeans laws now seem to state restriction on aftermarket parts.
What really brought it home was a recent thread I was on regarding M5 BMWs. To cut a long story short people were bemoaning the cost of keeping an M5 BMW on the road.
When I pointed out that these things could easily be done by a home mechanic, there was a flurry of posts suggesting my car was somehow inferior, poorly maintained, and generally in a fairly dangerous condition compared with slapping the plastic down at the BMW dealers.
Now considering we are on a motoring enthusiast website, I found that rather shocking. Pushing the point there wasn't going anywhere as I was effectively in a minority of one, but it lead me back to the reason for this post and the larger question.
If, on a motor enthusiast website the inference is that home maintenance is somehow inferior, the general population must think this even more.
Restrictions on what a how mechanic should/would be allowed to do must be right around the corner. It must be the governments next target for road safety when they realise cameras don't work, and the potential boost to the economy of everyone having to be 'dealer' only.
Have a got a tinfoil hat on here or is the BMW thread an indicator for the future.
Already in the last ten years we have had a ban on DIY'ers messing with gas installations, and more recently restrictions on home wiring.
On the subject of cars, the slow but progressive tightening of restrictions on IVA and kit car, even in some europeans countries kit cars can no longer me made. Europeans laws now seem to state restriction on aftermarket parts.
What really brought it home was a recent thread I was on regarding M5 BMWs. To cut a long story short people were bemoaning the cost of keeping an M5 BMW on the road.
When I pointed out that these things could easily be done by a home mechanic, there was a flurry of posts suggesting my car was somehow inferior, poorly maintained, and generally in a fairly dangerous condition compared with slapping the plastic down at the BMW dealers.
Now considering we are on a motoring enthusiast website, I found that rather shocking. Pushing the point there wasn't going anywhere as I was effectively in a minority of one, but it lead me back to the reason for this post and the larger question.
If, on a motor enthusiast website the inference is that home maintenance is somehow inferior, the general population must think this even more.
Restrictions on what a how mechanic should/would be allowed to do must be right around the corner. It must be the governments next target for road safety when they realise cameras don't work, and the potential boost to the economy of everyone having to be 'dealer' only.
Have a got a tinfoil hat on here or is the BMW thread an indicator for the future.
Julian, interesting perspective. I restore old cars for a hobby and drive a new BMW 3. I wouldn't attempt to work on my BMW (or any other new car for that matter). It seems that the newer cars get, the more they are geared for main dealership maintenance. Specialist tools and diagnostic equipment is becoming more and more prevalent which will make it just about impossible for the home mechanic. A mate of mine used to sell tools and equipment to the motor trade (independants, agricultural engineers, home mechanics etc) - his business has just about dried up as people simply don't/can't do their own maintenance. Just more 'dumbing down' of life in general I suppose!
Well, it's a concern if the home mechanic is squeezed out. I'm not that great with a spanner but I have tried a few things in my time and I'd like to continue to do so.
In fairness though, home mechanics aren't going to be a big revenue target for the government. There just aren't enough of them.
While the EU does a lot of stupid things, it's the EU that stopped you having to take your new car to the dealer for servicing. The warranty should be honoured if any garage services it per manufacturer's specifications.
I can't see them targeting the home mechanic any time soon. There just aren't enough of them to make the time/resources involved in writing a new law worthwhile. Hopefully...?
What worries me- and the reason I haven't spannered my current wheels- is that I wouldn't be able to sell my car if I were the one doing the spannering. Stamps in the book are all important when you come to sell anything under 10 years old... But I do take mine to a trusted indie rather than a dealer. I don't save a lot but I know he does a good job.
In fairness though, home mechanics aren't going to be a big revenue target for the government. There just aren't enough of them.
While the EU does a lot of stupid things, it's the EU that stopped you having to take your new car to the dealer for servicing. The warranty should be honoured if any garage services it per manufacturer's specifications.
I can't see them targeting the home mechanic any time soon. There just aren't enough of them to make the time/resources involved in writing a new law worthwhile. Hopefully...?
What worries me- and the reason I haven't spannered my current wheels- is that I wouldn't be able to sell my car if I were the one doing the spannering. Stamps in the book are all important when you come to sell anything under 10 years old... But I do take mine to a trusted indie rather than a dealer. I don't save a lot but I know he does a good job.
julian64 said:
I was pondering the other day how long it will be till home maintenance on cars is banned in this country.
Already in the last ten years we have had a ban on DIY'ers messing with gas installations, and more recently restrictions on home wiring.
I was wondering the same thing, looking at the 'Competent Persons' register yesterday, which extends the restrictions;Already in the last ten years we have had a ban on DIY'ers messing with gas installations, and more recently restrictions on home wiring.
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/
Someone interested in buying my import MX5 asked "What history does it come with?". I felt like replying "When we took the seat out, we found some weird japanese bug. You can have that if you want.". Saying that, the same guy no-showed having bought a completely different model/spec because "it had the tax"...
The EU will try to pass legislation on this at some point. I'd imagine we would see a ban on 'after market performance improvements' first though (as has been tried before).
blearyeyedboy said:
What worries me- and the reason I haven't spannered my current wheels- is that I wouldn't be able to sell my car if I were the one doing the spannering. Stamps in the book are all important when you come to sell anything under 10 years old... But I do take mine to a trusted indie rather than a dealer. I don't save a lot but I know he does a good job.
I think you should search on eBay for 'service stamps'. Once people (not you, the general public) realise that anyone can stamp a book, it won't affect used values.The EU will try to pass legislation on this at some point. I'd imagine we would see a ban on 'after market performance improvements' first though (as has been tried before).
Edited by bicycleshorts on Friday 6th January 09:39
Brake are pushing for compulsory qualifications for vehicle mechanics, which presumably would outlaw DIY maintenance. That attitude is very widespread amongst the general populous from what I've seen.
It doesn't surprise me that such attitudes exist. Based on their own ignorance of what's involved in working with vehicles having never done so themselves, it's beyond their comprehension that any "normal" person could do so. Instead such things are best left to the weird magical world beyond the coffee dispenser and attractive blonde sat behind the reception desk in the main dealers, where strange creatures in oil stained boiler suits dedicated to the art of mechanics toil away, their minds filled with the accumulated wisdom of engineers that have gone before them.
It's clear that many PHers have never changed a tyre, done an oil change, or could point to where their air filter lurks. Each to their own I guess.
I would like to think that any such move to outlaw DIY mechanics would be quickly shot down with the simple argument that increasing the cost of maintaining vehicles by forcing people to take them to garages for the most basic of tasks is going to reduce the amount of vehicle maintenance going on, leading to more cars in poor condition being out on the road. But then I remind myself that common sense and government tend not to mix that well.
It doesn't surprise me that such attitudes exist. Based on their own ignorance of what's involved in working with vehicles having never done so themselves, it's beyond their comprehension that any "normal" person could do so. Instead such things are best left to the weird magical world beyond the coffee dispenser and attractive blonde sat behind the reception desk in the main dealers, where strange creatures in oil stained boiler suits dedicated to the art of mechanics toil away, their minds filled with the accumulated wisdom of engineers that have gone before them.
It's clear that many PHers have never changed a tyre, done an oil change, or could point to where their air filter lurks. Each to their own I guess.
I would like to think that any such move to outlaw DIY mechanics would be quickly shot down with the simple argument that increasing the cost of maintaining vehicles by forcing people to take them to garages for the most basic of tasks is going to reduce the amount of vehicle maintenance going on, leading to more cars in poor condition being out on the road. But then I remind myself that common sense and government tend not to mix that well.
I think a lot of the problem is over confidence and complete lack of understanding of why things are so, see thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
With people like this then yes I believe home mechanics should be restricted. But I'm sure there are many many more who have more understanding than the 'technicians' that hang about many dealer workshops. It will always be the same in every walk of life, there are good, bad and the down right dangerous everywhere.
With people like this then yes I believe home mechanics should be restricted. But I'm sure there are many many more who have more understanding than the 'technicians' that hang about many dealer workshops. It will always be the same in every walk of life, there are good, bad and the down right dangerous everywhere.
The day I hear that home spannering has been outlawed is the day I start making plans to move to (god help me) the USA. I'm very far from your stereotypical Daily Wail reader, but this would really be too much nannying to bear.
Oh and re. the 'competent persons' list - have you seen some of the APES that fit windows!?! It isn't difficult ffs! I've done it a couple of times, piece of piss. Gas and electric I can understand, but windows!
Oh and re. the 'competent persons' list - have you seen some of the APES that fit windows!?! It isn't difficult ffs! I've done it a couple of times, piece of piss. Gas and electric I can understand, but windows!
mrtwisty said:
Oh and re. the 'competent persons' list - have you seen some of the APES that fit windows!?! It isn't difficult ffs! I've done it a couple of times, piece of piss. Gas and electric I can understand, but windows!
Even when it comes to plumbing, gas and electric, some of the workmanship from those that are allegedly trained and competent is just terrifying and would make the average DIYer suck their teeth and mutter "cowboys".
julian64 said:
What really brought it home was a recent thread I was on regarding M5 BMWs. To cut a long story short people were bemoaning the cost of keeping an M5 BMW on the road.
When I pointed out that these things could easily be done by a home mechanic, there was a flurry of posts suggesting my car was somehow inferior, poorly maintained, and generally in a fairly dangerous condition compared with slapping the plastic down at the BMW dealers.
Now considering we are on a motoring enthusiast website, I found that rather shocking. Pushing the point there wasn't going anywhere as I was effectively in a minority of one, but it lead me back to the reason for this post and the larger question.
Interesting that you start a new thread rather than respond on that one. The above doesn't actually represent what people were saying on that thread at all.When I pointed out that these things could easily be done by a home mechanic, there was a flurry of posts suggesting my car was somehow inferior, poorly maintained, and generally in a fairly dangerous condition compared with slapping the plastic down at the BMW dealers.
Now considering we are on a motoring enthusiast website, I found that rather shocking. Pushing the point there wasn't going anywhere as I was effectively in a minority of one, but it lead me back to the reason for this post and the larger question.
In answer to this thread though, yes you do have you tin foil hat on. It's a trend of manufacturers to try and make it harder for the car to be maintained outside the dealer network but legislation is your friend on this: it's an anti-competitive practice.
Clearly I am some sort of nutter...
Wired in electrics to garage and shed DIY (to required specifications though). Wired up external lights (to specification) and even serviced my own cars in the past (though not the BMW because its under warranty). Carry out standard maintenance on my bike too.
And personally, a well looked after M5 (home maintenance or not) is a bloody brilliant.
Best not live next door to me!
Wired in electrics to garage and shed DIY (to required specifications though). Wired up external lights (to specification) and even serviced my own cars in the past (though not the BMW because its under warranty). Carry out standard maintenance on my bike too.
And personally, a well looked after M5 (home maintenance or not) is a bloody brilliant.
Best not live next door to me!
Intresting thread, as I've seen (as have we all) so hugely incompetent work by 'professional' mechanics and DIY. I've also seen some extremely high class work by both mechanics and DIY-ers.
I agree that modern cars are becoming more complex however for the most part, they still work the same as always, as I found out when I pulled one of mine apart as I didn't really trust the work that had been undertaken previously.
I think a ban on home mechanics woudl be impossible to enforce or police and the effect on a lot of undustries would make it politically unpalatable, however increased regulation of professionals I can easily see on the horizon...
I agree that modern cars are becoming more complex however for the most part, they still work the same as always, as I found out when I pulled one of mine apart as I didn't really trust the work that had been undertaken previously.
I think a ban on home mechanics woudl be impossible to enforce or police and the effect on a lot of undustries would make it politically unpalatable, however increased regulation of professionals I can easily see on the horizon...
The only thing I won't touch is gas. I've installed quite a few bathrooms and a couple of (very nice) kitchens.
Anything else - well I'll be buggered if I'm paying a plumber to install some pipes, move a bog or put a radiator in.
Similarly with wiring - ffs - it isn't hard and it definitely isn't worth the ££££££s an hour these jokers charge. It's not "penny pinching" as Hora says - it's because I CAN do it, I quite like doing it and I do it in my timescales.
Anything else - well I'll be buggered if I'm paying a plumber to install some pipes, move a bog or put a radiator in.
Similarly with wiring - ffs - it isn't hard and it definitely isn't worth the ££££££s an hour these jokers charge. It's not "penny pinching" as Hora says - it's because I CAN do it, I quite like doing it and I do it in my timescales.
The whole thing with 'part P' and notifiable work came about thanks to some poor person dying due to a badly fitted kitchen.
Think is though while the law is there to 'prevent' such things that kitchen wasn't fitted by the householder and the law wouldn't have prevented it! It was fitted by a (cowboy) company and such companies will lie, I've argued the point with people here at work who have got a 'mate' in to do work who said "nah, don't need to bother with Part P unless you want to pay x extra, it'll be gone soon under the new government"....
Anyway back to vehicles, there are *so* many dodgy mechanics out there the whole 'competency' thing is a joke, trouble is that modern cars are so strewn with electrics and need such expensive bits of kit (or just knowledge that is hidden from the end user) to do stuff. Gone are the days where resetting the 'service' light is a case of hold down a button for a number of seconds!
Case in point, replacing ABS computer, simple job, 6 unions, two bolts and two connectors. Except that when you've replaced it you need to reset the link between the ABS/DSC HU/CM and PCM and the dealer service manual just refers to the procedure to follow on their specialised equipment. You can get an OBD interface but without knowing what the (dealer) software/hardware does the home mechanic is screwed.
Think is though while the law is there to 'prevent' such things that kitchen wasn't fitted by the householder and the law wouldn't have prevented it! It was fitted by a (cowboy) company and such companies will lie, I've argued the point with people here at work who have got a 'mate' in to do work who said "nah, don't need to bother with Part P unless you want to pay x extra, it'll be gone soon under the new government"....
Anyway back to vehicles, there are *so* many dodgy mechanics out there the whole 'competency' thing is a joke, trouble is that modern cars are so strewn with electrics and need such expensive bits of kit (or just knowledge that is hidden from the end user) to do stuff. Gone are the days where resetting the 'service' light is a case of hold down a button for a number of seconds!
Case in point, replacing ABS computer, simple job, 6 unions, two bolts and two connectors. Except that when you've replaced it you need to reset the link between the ABS/DSC HU/CM and PCM and the dealer service manual just refers to the procedure to follow on their specialised equipment. You can get an OBD interface but without knowing what the (dealer) software/hardware does the home mechanic is screwed.
Can't say I agree with anything the OP thinks is happening . At the end of the day after working 8-9 hours a day last thing you want to do is spend time under the car doing stupid silly jobs like changing brake fluid. Another point is the price of tools, fact many people don't have a garage let alone a ramp and it's f
king freezing outside.
Personally I rather buy a car that has been looked after by professional than Johhny bodger!
king freezing outside. Personally I rather buy a car that has been looked after by professional than Johhny bodger!
frosted said:
Can't say I agree with anything the OP thinks is happening . At the end of the day after working 8-9 hours a day last thing you want to do is spend time under the car doing stupid silly jobs like changing brake fluid. Another point is the price of tools, fact many people don't have a garage let alone a ramp and it's fking freezing outside.
Personally I rather buy a car that has been looked after by professional than Johhny bodger!
So, because you don't want to spend your time tinkering, nobody should be able to?king freezing outside. Personally I rather buy a car that has been looked after by professional than Johhny bodger!
I've undertaken head gasket replacements, brake bleeding jobs, gearbox replacements etc on my back, in the cold and horrible weather, without a garage because the jobs needed doing and I have the tools, skill and knowledge to do them.
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