Replica terminology
Discussion
There are so many words for this in adverts nowadays, but which is best... I guess it depends how much you think you can get for it.
Fake
Look-alike
Clone
Replica
Re-creation
Continuation
Tool-room copy
The latest flowery flavours of the month seem to be:
Evocation
Hommage
Can't we just stick to Replica?
Fake
Look-alike
Clone
Replica
Re-creation
Continuation
Tool-room copy
The latest flowery flavours of the month seem to be:
Evocation
Hommage
Can't we just stick to Replica?
LotusOmega375D said:
There are so many words for this in adverts nowadays, but which is best... I guess it depends how much you think you can get for it.
Fake
Look-alike
Clone
Replica
Re-creation
Continuation
Tool-room copy
The latest flowery flavours of the month seem to be:
Evocation
Hommage
Can't we just stick to Replica?
No, there's a huge difference between a 'look-alike', which might just be a GRP shell on Sierra running gear, and a 'continuation', which is a near identical car to the original.Fake
Look-alike
Clone
Replica
Re-creation
Continuation
Tool-room copy
The latest flowery flavours of the month seem to be:
Evocation
Hommage
Can't we just stick to Replica?
LordBretSinclair said:
You're going to open a real can of worms here.
This forum has yet to agree on what a "classic" is so heaven knows where this thread will go but it should be interesting reading
I think I'll sit back for a while before adding my views.
Wise man...This forum has yet to agree on what a "classic" is so heaven knows where this thread will go but it should be interesting reading
I think I'll sit back for a while before adding my views.
But to add to the fun, why not chuck in the situation where the engine, chassis and gearbox from one car are split across 3 cars. The 3 owners have each paid full price for their car (it being described as the original) - because each car has the original engine/chassis/gearbox (delete where appropriate)
Andy 308GTB said:
Wise man...
But to add to the fun, why not chuck in the situation where the engine, chassis and gearbox from one car are split across 3 cars. The 3 owners have each paid full price for their car (it being described as the original) - because each car has the original engine/chassis/gearbox (delete where appropriate)
Ah,yes,you mean like 75% of the 'Works Cars' that are out there?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/10.gifBut to add to the fun, why not chuck in the situation where the engine, chassis and gearbox from one car are split across 3 cars. The 3 owners have each paid full price for their car (it being described as the original) - because each car has the original engine/chassis/gearbox (delete where appropriate)
The wonderful quarterly discussion.
I go by Jenks' definitions;
I go by Jenks' definitions;
Denis Jenkinson said:
"Original
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as “nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.
Genuine
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.
Authentic
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.
Resurrection
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the graveyard.
Re-construction
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.
Facsimile
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.
Special
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.
Duplication
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.
Destroyed
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.
Scrapped
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.
Broken up
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.
Converted
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to R4B."
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as “nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.
Genuine
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.
Authentic
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.
Resurrection
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the graveyard.
Re-construction
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.
Facsimile
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.
Special
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.
Duplication
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.
Destroyed
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.
Scrapped
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.
Broken up
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.
Converted
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to R4B."
terenceb said:
Andy 308GTB said:
Wise man...
But to add to the fun, why not chuck in the situation where the engine, chassis and gearbox from one car are split across 3 cars. The 3 owners have each paid full price for their car (it being described as the original) - because each car has the original engine/chassis/gearbox (delete where appropriate)
Ah,yes,you mean like 75% of the 'Works Cars' that are out there?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/10.gifBut to add to the fun, why not chuck in the situation where the engine, chassis and gearbox from one car are split across 3 cars. The 3 owners have each paid full price for their car (it being described as the original) - because each car has the original engine/chassis/gearbox (delete where appropriate)
This isn't a thread about what constitutes original and what does not. My point is why do we need all these new words for adverts for replicas? The vendors are not trying to fob the cars off as originals, but seem determined to avoid using the world "Replica" in their adverts.
I mean if you met a guy at a Classic Car meet with a nice 911RS replica, you're hardly going to say "Hi mate: that's a lovely Evocation you've got there"
I mean if you met a guy at a Classic Car meet with a nice 911RS replica, you're hardly going to say "Hi mate: that's a lovely Evocation you've got there"
"Replica" isn’t accurate enough. Sure, if you’re advertising in general car mags, then yes, “replica” will do. But a specialist car will be advertised in the right place and targeted at people who will know what it is, so it should be correctly described (as a modern interpretation, continuation, imitation, defacation, or whatever it actually is).
LotusOmega375D said:
This isn't a thread about what constitutes original and what does not. My point is why do we need all these new words for adverts for replicas? The vendors are not trying to fob the cars off as originals, but seem determined to avoid using the world "Replica" in their adverts.
I mean if you met a guy at a Classic Car meet with a nice 911RS replica, you're hardly going to say "Hi mate: that's a lovely Evocation you've got there"
These days calling a spade a spade seems to be frowned upon if it's 'high end'. It's not 'second hand' it's 'pre-owned' I mean if you met a guy at a Classic Car meet with a nice 911RS replica, you're hardly going to say "Hi mate: that's a lovely Evocation you've got there"
I believe the term is Bitsa.
It's all a bit like George Washington's Axe?
I don't dare buy any antique that costs much, because I don't wish to be ripped off by someone who is better at faking that I am at spotting.
A car is little different, everyone buys according to their pocket and looks down or up accordingly. That's human nature.
Having your Bug sneered at because it has the wrong type bearing crank is a little unreasonable. Anyway there are probably more Bugattis around today than Molsheim ever manufactured, all genuine.
It's all a bit like George Washington's Axe?
I don't dare buy any antique that costs much, because I don't wish to be ripped off by someone who is better at faking that I am at spotting.
A car is little different, everyone buys according to their pocket and looks down or up accordingly. That's human nature.
Having your Bug sneered at because it has the wrong type bearing crank is a little unreasonable. Anyway there are probably more Bugattis around today than Molsheim ever manufactured, all genuine.
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