Why are air cooled engine rebuilds so expensive.

[sushisushi]

Simple question. I'm looking at buying a non runner 964 as a project. One thing it want is a fresh full engine rebuild. I see figures of £10k plus benign banded around. How much labour is needed for this thing, 200 hours!?

I'm a total Porsche engine novice so I am naive I guess. My 4.2v8 Audi engine cost nothing like that to rebuild and that's a 344bhp beast.

[anonymous-user]

They do need parts as well as labour.

Quality rebuilds start at around £4500 for top end only, up to the figures you quote depending what else needs doing, parts required etc.

[Huntsman]

If the crank needs a re-grind its mega expensive as oversize shells are Porsche only and big ends and mains are 600 quid a set.

Cylinders and pistons, if needed, are big money too.

[D900SP]

First of all you need to compare oranges to oranges.
Define "rebuild" on your Audi, and why did it need a "rebuild" in the first place?

Early,(pre "91, but there is an engine number change point)964 engines have an issue of oil leaking due to the lack of head gaskets. To repair that requires more machine work.

In a full "rebuild" the list of parts required adds up quickly, especially if new DM flywheel, clutch and the major oil line update are required.

An accurate estimate can only be made with vehicle inspected, road tested, fault codes read and the engine out, diassembled, cleaned and measured.

Porsche specialists ( I work in one) go by previous experience on what is needed and also to provide a warranty on any work that is done.

Added: If the crank needs grinding, buy an used std/std one.

There is plenty on the web and at least two very good books to carry out research with before you even think of buying one.

Edited by D900SP on Sunday 5th February 18:58

Edited by D900SP on Sunday 5th February 18:59

[996ttalot]

Basically full engine rebuild using original barrels and pistons including new tin wear is around £4.5-£5k in parts alone. Then add 50-60 hours and you end up with nearly 10k including VAT. If you want to go say 3.8 then you can add another £4k in parts alone.

Main cost is the Porsche parts needed. Tin wear alone iirc is over £1k.

[Steffan]

You own the car. You make the decisions.

£10,000 is a lot of money.

There are many specialist engine builders who could repair this car for a fraction of that price.

Porsche engineering is no different to any other class mechanical engineering. It is NOT rocket science. It is not aero quality. Just car standard.

I would get alternatives. But it is your car. Entirely up to you.

[sushisushi]

I want a good job but I can't help feeling like it's a rip off. Btw my Adi is the 2006 S4. Not a shoddy engine.

[996ttalot]

Steffan said:

You own the car. You make the decisions.

£10,000 is a lot of money.

There are many specialist engine builders who could repair this car for a fraction of that price.

Porsche engineering is no different to any other class mechanical engineering. It is NOT rocket science. It is not aero quality. Just car standard.

I would get alternatives. But it is your car. Entirely up to you.

So please tell us all how the hell you are going to buy the Porsche parts for cheaper - would love to know since we buy them all the time. The money is not the labour - it is the parts.

[melv]

And 'while the engines out' throw in new oil pump, clutch plates and fork, upgrade to lightweight flywheel, new chains and tensioners, regrind valves, new through bolts (£600 per set)... etc., etc.........

[ras62]

Some of the prices being talked about here are far from average (4-5k). Give John a call at Unit 11 (01925 852000), he will talk you through what is needed without giving you a heart attack!

[D900SP]

Steffan said:

You own the car. You make the decisions.

£10,000 is a lot of money.

There are many specialist engine builders who could repair this car for a fraction of that price.

Porsche engineering is no different to any other class mechanical engineering. It is NOT rocket science. It is not aero quality. Just car standard.

I would get alternatives. But it is your car. Entirely up to you.

So that is the engine sorted, assuming the "engine rebuild specialist" actually does know about Porsche engines.

But that does not include all the other parts related to 964 engine rebuilds and the car itself.
For instance:
As a posted noted, the corroded engine shrouding.
Distributor drive belt replacing.
Ignition wires that may be age cracked.
The main oil line from case to oil filter adaptor which has been updated to one that doesn't leak.
DM flyweel and clutch.
Engine bay insulation.
Having the fuel injectors cleaned and tested.
Alternator output voltage, if it's too low there are problems.

Have to look at the car in the "big picture" as it is no good having a rebuilt engine installed in a car that still needs lots more money before it can be driven if one is on a limited budget.

[996ttalot]

ras62 said:

Some of the prices being talked about here are far from average (4-5k). Give John a call at Unit 11 (01925 852000), he will talk you through what is needed without giving you a heart attack!

The OP said he wanted a FULL engine rebuild, not top end.

[996ttalot]

sushisushi said:

Simple question. I'm looking at buying a non runner 964 as a project. One thing it want is a fresh full engine rebuild. I see figures of £10k plus benign banded around. How much labour is needed for this thing, 200 hours!?

I'm a total Porsche engine novice so I am naive I guess. My 4.2v8 Audi engine cost nothing like that to rebuild and that's a 344bhp beast.

To answer your question - you would need to be paying in the region of £5k for a non runner to make it worth while. Add up to £10k for full rebuilt engine with warranty, then another £4k for full respray if required, or say £1k-£2k paint for general, then you might want interior refreshed etc etc. You would be at £20k.
Now look at the cars for sale even on PH, that have had this done - they are nearly all at £20k mark. They are at that price because of the above.
Don't underestimate how much the Porsche tax is on parts that you will need.

A second hand engine (not warranted) are averaging £8k, a new one is £26k and there are only a few. You can get a full replacement exchange engine done with a couple of good German outfits for 8k Euro + delivery.

[rlw]

sushisushi said:

Simple question. I'm looking at buying a non runner 964 as a project. One thing it want is a fresh full engine rebuild. I see figures of £10k plus benign banded around. How much labour is needed for this thing, 200 hours!?

£50 per hour for the labour - are you having a laugh? And what about the bits? As has been said, maybe 50 hours labour so thats £5000 gone before you've even bought anything and, as has been said, the bits are very very far from cheap.

Thing is though, unless your motor is really ste, a whole lot of bits will be re-useable.

And if you think the price for rebuilding your motor is high ask, in an casual fashion of your chosen engine builder, what a full rebuild will cost on a 996GT3 motor................

[sushisushi]

So it just good old' Porsche overpriced parts as per...

[sushisushi]

BTW I used to pay £45 an hour at Stattler Porsche Sheffield.

Edited by sushisushi on Sunday 5th February 20:05

Edited by sushisushi on Sunday 5th February 20:06

[ras62]

The difference between a top end and full rebuild is not so great, it will certainly not cost 5k more. The costs escalate only if pistons/cylinders are unserviceable, like wise the crank, but this is the exception not the norm. If the OP wishes to modify the motor then prepare to have an open cheque book. Like I said, speak with the experts, and negotiate.