Your Toyota has just plummeted in value - Thanks Mr T UK
Discussion
Rather interesting article at Timesplus, this might go an awful long way to explaining various "known warranty issues" that won't get preventatively fixed, unless it goes bang & only if you complained.
For those not in the Toyota know, these are some of the common problems that don't get fixed.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t...
http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php...
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/buying-a-u...
As a Toyota fan I'm deeply saddened, now shall I put a claim in for a bottom end repair on my mums VVTi Corolla that suffered a known issue (clogged oil strainer) that cost me a grand to repair on behalf of my mum?
This is the text
On a summer afternoon in the stuffy heat of a Toyota dealer’s workshop, the busy technician hoped he was in for a quick fix when he was asked to examine a brand new Yaris with a glitch in its central-locking system.
It was the third time the shiny hatchback had developed this fault in the four days since it was sold, and the owner was understandably furious.
The customer had not noticed, however, that something else was wrong with the car.
As soon as the technician got behind the wheel to drive it into the work bay, he was alarmed by a loud clicking from the steering column.
Worryingly, it was not the first time technicians in the workshop had noticed this suspicious noise when servicing the popular Yaris model. They had shared concerns that it might be an early symptom of a fault which could later cause the steering system to “malfunction drastically”.
The technician, who worked for a large dealership in the south of England, decided to replace the entire steering column and made a £500 order for the parts he needed.
Within an hour, his manager marched into the workshop angrily demanding an explanation. “All hell let loose,” the technician recalls. “He told me Toyota would never agree to the repair . . . without the customer complaining.”
The technician stood his ground. “I went off my head at him. I just said that it was a load of horse s**t. The customer deserved better,” he says.
The problem was that Toyota’s warranty policy and procedures manual, a secret document seen only by dealers, states that “the warranty should address only those issues raised directly by a customer”, unless they are a direct risk to safety or reliability.
As a result, defects such as the clicking Yaris steering column, heavy clutches, corroded wheels and faulty wing mirrors cannot be fixed under warranty unless the customer reports them.
Dealers who are caught out repairing these “cosmetic” faults under warranty without a customer complaint can be fined up to four times the cost of the work.
Although Toyota said last week that this maximum fine is “very rarely” imposed and that it always covered safety issues under the warranty, dealers and technicians said that they felt compelled to disregard more serious problems that could affect the operation of the vehicle, such as oil or water pump leaks, faulty shock absorbers and blockages in the engine oil pump.
The policy caused such discomfort among technicians that dealers from the south of England zone decided to challenge Toyota bosses at a meeting at the company’s futuristic headquarters in Epsom, Surrey, in November 2009.
The zone — which is made up of 15 dealers — gathered at the four-star Arora hotel in Crawley before the meeting to put together an agenda that set out “grave concerns” about the ethics of the practice.
The fears were presented to Toyota bosses by Tim Murphy, then chairman of the southern dealer group and now brand manager for Motorline, a major Toyota outlet.
The minutes of the meeting say the dealers felt the policy was “very demotivational” to technicians who feared being held responsible should “something terrible happen”. Ignoring manufacturing defects in new cars in order to avoid paying for the repairs was “most definitely not in the spirit of complete customer satisfaction”, they said.
One witness said Jon Williams, the firm’s commercial director and now its UK boss, “just said ‘Stop!’ and raised his hands” when one dealer challenged him directly over concerns that the policy could compromise customer safety.
Williams told The Sunday Times that he could not remember the exchange and “didn’t think” he was in the room during that part of the meeting. The minutes, which were prepared by the dealers, suggest concerns were raised by the whole zone, but Williams said that they were “likely” to have been just “the views of one retailer”.
Toyota bosses sought to quell the concerns by telling dealers that any genuinely safety- related items should be covered under the warranty, including significant oil and water pump leaks. The firm says its dealers are now happy and the matter has not been raised since.
However, Shaun Mcelhinney, who ran three Toyota and Lexus dealerships in Suffolk and Essex, said concerns about the policy continued until he sold his business last summer. “If it was a safety- related issue and the customer hadn’t reported it Toyota would always say ‘get it done’,” he said. “If it wasn’t safety and it wasn’t going to affect the performance of that car there and then: ‘not interested’.”
He listed items that might not be fixed if the customer failed to report them as: “water leaks, oil leaks, noisy steering racks, cosmetic things on the car such as alloy wheels — basically anything that wasn’t safety related”.
When cars came out of warranty, the dealer became free to tell the customer about the very same faults and charge them for the repairs because, he said, Toyota is “in the business of selling parts”.
He said that in the month before he sold his dealership last May, he had been penalised for replacing a set of corroded alloy wheels on an £80,000 Lexus because he could not prove that the customer had complained about them.
A second former dealer has made similar allegations. “This is how it works. A Yaris comes in for a routine service but the technician may find that it has an oil leak in the engine. Oil leaks were a company problem, a major problem. The engine could lose all of its oil and if the engine seizes up at 70mph the car will go out of control.
“If it was clearly safety related the dealers had to carry out the repair. [But] the issue of clearly safety related was one that the dealers and Toyota did not agree on.”
Toyota denied this and insisted all oil leaks are safety issues and will be repaired.
David Duke, who until last year was the warranty manager at the Toll House dealerships in Gatwick and Horsham, alleges that dealers were made to keep customers in the dark about an array of faults until their warranties expired.
He explained how customers booking their cars in for a service were required to sign a “job card” on which any defects that they mentioned were recorded. The technicians in the workshop were then unable to carry out warranty repairs on any additional faults which they discovered, unless they were clearly related to the safety or reliability of the car.
“Non-safety-related faults are defined as ‘cosmetic’ and cannot be repaired unless reported by the customer,” he said. “The minute the warranty is expired and the financial responsibility is transferred to the customer, we could report as many faults as possible.”
Toyota auditors inspect the job cards when they spot-check dealerships, and reserve the right to penalise dealers who are found to have conducted repairs that were not mentioned by
the customer.
Documents seen by The Sunday Times show auditors reprimanded Toll House in 2009 for four repairs which breached the secret policy, including corroded wheels, heavy clutches and faulty wing mirrors.
The documents repeatedly state that the repairs were wrong because the faults were discovered by the technician who entered them on a visual safety report (VSR) which was given to the customer. It states: “This fault was originally reported on a VSR and is not therefore a customer reported condition.”
A covering letter with the documents emphasises the point: “There was no evidence to confirm that the customer had reported these conditions and therefore the claim should not have been claimed under the terms of the warranty.”
Toyota last week claimed the breaches of the policy were more complex than the documents indicated, and said one of the clutch faults had been deemed wear and tear. It pointed out that the dealer had not actually been fined.
Duke said the policy was a source of constant frustration to technicians in the workshop who felt their hands were tied when they found faults with new cars because the policy so often prevented them from carrying out repairs. A technician at another centre, who asked not to be named, said: “I found it mindblowing. How is the customer supposed to know about a fault? It’s our job as technicians to recognise problems.”
Duke said the policy was a source of constant frustration to technicians in the workshop who felt their hands were tied when they found faults with new cars because the policy so often prevented them from carrying out repairs. A technician at another centre, who asked not to be named, said: “I found it mindblowing. How is the customer supposed to know about a fault? It’s our job as technicians to recognise problems.”
It is a complaint echoed by David O’Halloran, the 26-year-old owner of a three-year-old Toyota Auris hatchback. “I know as a customer that I am expected to maintain my car and make sure that the oil and coolant levels are right, but with internal things that I can’t check, like the clutch or brakes, I would absolutely expect to be informed by the garage if there was a fault.”
His comments were seconded by Robert Gifford, chairman of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety. “Most customers wouldn’t know that their car had developed technical faults because they are not mechanics or experts.
“They trust the garage to tell them when something is wrong,” he said.
Some Toyota owners have taken to online forums to express their dismay after their cars mysteriously developed faults as soon as their warranties expired.
One posted a message saying that his Toyota Corolla had suddenly begun emitting white smoke and making “roaring” noises. “I feel this is totally unacceptable in a car that is just out of warranty and has been serviced regularly by a Toyota garage,” he wrote.
Another user described how she was suddenly told that she needed a new clutch within weeks of her Toyota Aygo coming out of warranty.
Which?, the consumer watchdog, and Motor Codes, the industry regulator, said they would investigate the evidence uncovered by The Sunday Times.
Insight: Jonathan Calvert and Heidi Blake
Fault lines
Minutes to November 2009 Toyota southern zone council meeting:
“The main issue; if it is in warranty it cannot be reported (gives us liability and CCS issues), if it is out of warranty, report and get the work. The zone has an issue with the ethics of this policy “TGB (Toyota Great Brittain) warranty policy and procedures manual (section on self-authorisation).
“TMC’s (Toyota Motor Corporation) principle is that warranty should address only those issues raised directly by a customer as they do not recognise ‘add-on’ repairs. In addition to customer reported faults TGB have always considered that any safety or reliability problems should also be addressed.”
Letter to the Toll House dealership in Horsham, West Sussex, following warranty audit:
“There was no evidence to confirm that the customer had reported these conditions (corroded alloy wheels and door mirror wind noise) and therefore the claims should not have been claimed under the terms of the warranty.”
Toyota says there is no problem
Jon Williams, the managing director of Toyota GB, was on the phone to The Sunday Times within hours of our reporters putting to him the allegations made by dealers.
He promised to “drop everything” and travelled to London the following day to tell his company’s side of the story.
At the meeting, which took place 10 days ago, Williams told Insight’s reporters: “We wanted to show you today that we are real people and we care about our customers, and we care about our dealers and we want to do the right thing.
“It hurts that you are writing a story that could undermine that and damage our business.”
Williams and the two executives who accompanied him produced an independent report that said the firm’s warranty policy had the highest rate of dealer approval in the UK motor industry.
Indeed, the AA also holds the warranty up as an “excellent example of best practice”. Later the national council of Toyota dealers wrote to The Sunday Times to confirm that it believes the policy is “robust but fair”.
Williams emphasised that any safety or reliability fault would always be fixed and the cost would be covered under the warranty policy. He said nothing was more important to the firm than the safety of its customers.
The Toyota executives initially denied that Toyota had any policy of refusing to recognise “add-on repairs” — a term for faults that are not reported by the customer — until the reporters produced the firm’s confidential warranty policy manual, which clearly states that this is the case.
Williams and his executives argued that very few faults would not be fixed under the policy because almost all would fall into the category of safety and reliability. It describes all faults that are not safety or reliability related as “purely cosmetic”.
Toyota firmly denied the claim by dealers that the policy stopped them fixing any faults that could have affected a vehicle’s operation such as oil and water pump leaks, faulty shock absorbers and engine oil blockages.
The company said that steering faults would almost always be considered safety related, but it had conducted a full investigation into the clicking noise from the Yaris steering column and concluded that it was not dangerous.
Toyota says that customers are encouraged to report all problems when they book their car in for a service or repair.
It also insists that its policy is replicated across the industry. However, The Sunday Times last week contacted seven leading car manufacturers, including Nissan, Volkswagen and Ford, who all said that they would repair any defects found by their technicians under warranty, regardless of whether or not they were reported by the customer.
When pressed, Toyota said that its technicians were “at liberty” to ring customers and inform them about faults that had not been reported. The customer would then be required to book the car in for an entirely new repair and report the fault in order to get it fixed.
However, the five former dealers and technicians who spoke to The Sunday Times said they had always understood that they would have been penalised for telling customers about faults.
It is unclear why Toyota chooses to burden its customers with extra bureaucracy by insisting that they book their cars in to the workshop all over again when technicians find defects with their cars, rather than repairing them on the spot.
Nor is it obvious why the firm operates a complex audit system that can penalise dealers for repairing faults under warranty that are unknown to the customer if, as Toyota says, its technicians are free to tell customers of any faults they discover.
For those not in the Toyota know, these are some of the common problems that don't get fixed.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t...
http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php...
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/buying-a-u...
As a Toyota fan I'm deeply saddened, now shall I put a claim in for a bottom end repair on my mums VVTi Corolla that suffered a known issue (clogged oil strainer) that cost me a grand to repair on behalf of my mum?
This is the text
On a summer afternoon in the stuffy heat of a Toyota dealer’s workshop, the busy technician hoped he was in for a quick fix when he was asked to examine a brand new Yaris with a glitch in its central-locking system.
It was the third time the shiny hatchback had developed this fault in the four days since it was sold, and the owner was understandably furious.
The customer had not noticed, however, that something else was wrong with the car.
As soon as the technician got behind the wheel to drive it into the work bay, he was alarmed by a loud clicking from the steering column.
Worryingly, it was not the first time technicians in the workshop had noticed this suspicious noise when servicing the popular Yaris model. They had shared concerns that it might be an early symptom of a fault which could later cause the steering system to “malfunction drastically”.
The technician, who worked for a large dealership in the south of England, decided to replace the entire steering column and made a £500 order for the parts he needed.
Within an hour, his manager marched into the workshop angrily demanding an explanation. “All hell let loose,” the technician recalls. “He told me Toyota would never agree to the repair . . . without the customer complaining.”
The technician stood his ground. “I went off my head at him. I just said that it was a load of horse s**t. The customer deserved better,” he says.
The problem was that Toyota’s warranty policy and procedures manual, a secret document seen only by dealers, states that “the warranty should address only those issues raised directly by a customer”, unless they are a direct risk to safety or reliability.
As a result, defects such as the clicking Yaris steering column, heavy clutches, corroded wheels and faulty wing mirrors cannot be fixed under warranty unless the customer reports them.
Dealers who are caught out repairing these “cosmetic” faults under warranty without a customer complaint can be fined up to four times the cost of the work.
Although Toyota said last week that this maximum fine is “very rarely” imposed and that it always covered safety issues under the warranty, dealers and technicians said that they felt compelled to disregard more serious problems that could affect the operation of the vehicle, such as oil or water pump leaks, faulty shock absorbers and blockages in the engine oil pump.
The policy caused such discomfort among technicians that dealers from the south of England zone decided to challenge Toyota bosses at a meeting at the company’s futuristic headquarters in Epsom, Surrey, in November 2009.
The zone — which is made up of 15 dealers — gathered at the four-star Arora hotel in Crawley before the meeting to put together an agenda that set out “grave concerns” about the ethics of the practice.
The fears were presented to Toyota bosses by Tim Murphy, then chairman of the southern dealer group and now brand manager for Motorline, a major Toyota outlet.
The minutes of the meeting say the dealers felt the policy was “very demotivational” to technicians who feared being held responsible should “something terrible happen”. Ignoring manufacturing defects in new cars in order to avoid paying for the repairs was “most definitely not in the spirit of complete customer satisfaction”, they said.
One witness said Jon Williams, the firm’s commercial director and now its UK boss, “just said ‘Stop!’ and raised his hands” when one dealer challenged him directly over concerns that the policy could compromise customer safety.
Williams told The Sunday Times that he could not remember the exchange and “didn’t think” he was in the room during that part of the meeting. The minutes, which were prepared by the dealers, suggest concerns were raised by the whole zone, but Williams said that they were “likely” to have been just “the views of one retailer”.
Toyota bosses sought to quell the concerns by telling dealers that any genuinely safety- related items should be covered under the warranty, including significant oil and water pump leaks. The firm says its dealers are now happy and the matter has not been raised since.
However, Shaun Mcelhinney, who ran three Toyota and Lexus dealerships in Suffolk and Essex, said concerns about the policy continued until he sold his business last summer. “If it was a safety- related issue and the customer hadn’t reported it Toyota would always say ‘get it done’,” he said. “If it wasn’t safety and it wasn’t going to affect the performance of that car there and then: ‘not interested’.”
He listed items that might not be fixed if the customer failed to report them as: “water leaks, oil leaks, noisy steering racks, cosmetic things on the car such as alloy wheels — basically anything that wasn’t safety related”.
When cars came out of warranty, the dealer became free to tell the customer about the very same faults and charge them for the repairs because, he said, Toyota is “in the business of selling parts”.
He said that in the month before he sold his dealership last May, he had been penalised for replacing a set of corroded alloy wheels on an £80,000 Lexus because he could not prove that the customer had complained about them.
A second former dealer has made similar allegations. “This is how it works. A Yaris comes in for a routine service but the technician may find that it has an oil leak in the engine. Oil leaks were a company problem, a major problem. The engine could lose all of its oil and if the engine seizes up at 70mph the car will go out of control.
“If it was clearly safety related the dealers had to carry out the repair. [But] the issue of clearly safety related was one that the dealers and Toyota did not agree on.”
Toyota denied this and insisted all oil leaks are safety issues and will be repaired.
David Duke, who until last year was the warranty manager at the Toll House dealerships in Gatwick and Horsham, alleges that dealers were made to keep customers in the dark about an array of faults until their warranties expired.
He explained how customers booking their cars in for a service were required to sign a “job card” on which any defects that they mentioned were recorded. The technicians in the workshop were then unable to carry out warranty repairs on any additional faults which they discovered, unless they were clearly related to the safety or reliability of the car.
“Non-safety-related faults are defined as ‘cosmetic’ and cannot be repaired unless reported by the customer,” he said. “The minute the warranty is expired and the financial responsibility is transferred to the customer, we could report as many faults as possible.”
Toyota auditors inspect the job cards when they spot-check dealerships, and reserve the right to penalise dealers who are found to have conducted repairs that were not mentioned by
the customer.
Documents seen by The Sunday Times show auditors reprimanded Toll House in 2009 for four repairs which breached the secret policy, including corroded wheels, heavy clutches and faulty wing mirrors.
The documents repeatedly state that the repairs were wrong because the faults were discovered by the technician who entered them on a visual safety report (VSR) which was given to the customer. It states: “This fault was originally reported on a VSR and is not therefore a customer reported condition.”
A covering letter with the documents emphasises the point: “There was no evidence to confirm that the customer had reported these conditions and therefore the claim should not have been claimed under the terms of the warranty.”
Toyota last week claimed the breaches of the policy were more complex than the documents indicated, and said one of the clutch faults had been deemed wear and tear. It pointed out that the dealer had not actually been fined.
Duke said the policy was a source of constant frustration to technicians in the workshop who felt their hands were tied when they found faults with new cars because the policy so often prevented them from carrying out repairs. A technician at another centre, who asked not to be named, said: “I found it mindblowing. How is the customer supposed to know about a fault? It’s our job as technicians to recognise problems.”
Duke said the policy was a source of constant frustration to technicians in the workshop who felt their hands were tied when they found faults with new cars because the policy so often prevented them from carrying out repairs. A technician at another centre, who asked not to be named, said: “I found it mindblowing. How is the customer supposed to know about a fault? It’s our job as technicians to recognise problems.”
It is a complaint echoed by David O’Halloran, the 26-year-old owner of a three-year-old Toyota Auris hatchback. “I know as a customer that I am expected to maintain my car and make sure that the oil and coolant levels are right, but with internal things that I can’t check, like the clutch or brakes, I would absolutely expect to be informed by the garage if there was a fault.”
His comments were seconded by Robert Gifford, chairman of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety. “Most customers wouldn’t know that their car had developed technical faults because they are not mechanics or experts.
“They trust the garage to tell them when something is wrong,” he said.
Some Toyota owners have taken to online forums to express their dismay after their cars mysteriously developed faults as soon as their warranties expired.
One posted a message saying that his Toyota Corolla had suddenly begun emitting white smoke and making “roaring” noises. “I feel this is totally unacceptable in a car that is just out of warranty and has been serviced regularly by a Toyota garage,” he wrote.
Another user described how she was suddenly told that she needed a new clutch within weeks of her Toyota Aygo coming out of warranty.
Which?, the consumer watchdog, and Motor Codes, the industry regulator, said they would investigate the evidence uncovered by The Sunday Times.
Insight: Jonathan Calvert and Heidi Blake
Fault lines
Minutes to November 2009 Toyota southern zone council meeting:
“The main issue; if it is in warranty it cannot be reported (gives us liability and CCS issues), if it is out of warranty, report and get the work. The zone has an issue with the ethics of this policy “TGB (Toyota Great Brittain) warranty policy and procedures manual (section on self-authorisation).
“TMC’s (Toyota Motor Corporation) principle is that warranty should address only those issues raised directly by a customer as they do not recognise ‘add-on’ repairs. In addition to customer reported faults TGB have always considered that any safety or reliability problems should also be addressed.”
Letter to the Toll House dealership in Horsham, West Sussex, following warranty audit:
“There was no evidence to confirm that the customer had reported these conditions (corroded alloy wheels and door mirror wind noise) and therefore the claims should not have been claimed under the terms of the warranty.”
Toyota says there is no problem
Jon Williams, the managing director of Toyota GB, was on the phone to The Sunday Times within hours of our reporters putting to him the allegations made by dealers.
He promised to “drop everything” and travelled to London the following day to tell his company’s side of the story.
At the meeting, which took place 10 days ago, Williams told Insight’s reporters: “We wanted to show you today that we are real people and we care about our customers, and we care about our dealers and we want to do the right thing.
“It hurts that you are writing a story that could undermine that and damage our business.”
Williams and the two executives who accompanied him produced an independent report that said the firm’s warranty policy had the highest rate of dealer approval in the UK motor industry.
Indeed, the AA also holds the warranty up as an “excellent example of best practice”. Later the national council of Toyota dealers wrote to The Sunday Times to confirm that it believes the policy is “robust but fair”.
Williams emphasised that any safety or reliability fault would always be fixed and the cost would be covered under the warranty policy. He said nothing was more important to the firm than the safety of its customers.
The Toyota executives initially denied that Toyota had any policy of refusing to recognise “add-on repairs” — a term for faults that are not reported by the customer — until the reporters produced the firm’s confidential warranty policy manual, which clearly states that this is the case.
Williams and his executives argued that very few faults would not be fixed under the policy because almost all would fall into the category of safety and reliability. It describes all faults that are not safety or reliability related as “purely cosmetic”.
Toyota firmly denied the claim by dealers that the policy stopped them fixing any faults that could have affected a vehicle’s operation such as oil and water pump leaks, faulty shock absorbers and engine oil blockages.
The company said that steering faults would almost always be considered safety related, but it had conducted a full investigation into the clicking noise from the Yaris steering column and concluded that it was not dangerous.
Toyota says that customers are encouraged to report all problems when they book their car in for a service or repair.
It also insists that its policy is replicated across the industry. However, The Sunday Times last week contacted seven leading car manufacturers, including Nissan, Volkswagen and Ford, who all said that they would repair any defects found by their technicians under warranty, regardless of whether or not they were reported by the customer.
When pressed, Toyota said that its technicians were “at liberty” to ring customers and inform them about faults that had not been reported. The customer would then be required to book the car in for an entirely new repair and report the fault in order to get it fixed.
However, the five former dealers and technicians who spoke to The Sunday Times said they had always understood that they would have been penalised for telling customers about faults.
It is unclear why Toyota chooses to burden its customers with extra bureaucracy by insisting that they book their cars in to the workshop all over again when technicians find defects with their cars, rather than repairing them on the spot.
Nor is it obvious why the firm operates a complex audit system that can penalise dealers for repairing faults under warranty that are unknown to the customer if, as Toyota says, its technicians are free to tell customers of any faults they discover.
Can a customer request the dealer report to them any faults that are found that they wouldn't know about.
They then "report" back that fault to the dealer
Who then gets the warranty claim approved etc.
If they fail to report any faults that the customer requested then they've failed in their duty of care?
That said, now that EU block exemption laws have changed, an independant mechanic could surely service and check/report back faults that would then be subject to a warranty claim. As they are not tied to Toyota (or anyone else) they've not franchise to lose and the EU law prevents the manufacturer from turning down the claim?
This would effectively also mean the manufacturers shooting their own dealer networks in the foot
They then "report" back that fault to the dealer
Who then gets the warranty claim approved etc.If they fail to report any faults that the customer requested then they've failed in their duty of care?
That said, now that EU block exemption laws have changed, an independant mechanic could surely service and check/report back faults that would then be subject to a warranty claim. As they are not tied to Toyota (or anyone else) they've not franchise to lose and the EU law prevents the manufacturer from turning down the claim?
This would effectively also mean the manufacturers shooting their own dealer networks in the foot
Well, all i can say is my Audi dealer were excellent with my extended warranty on a used car.
Went in for a couple of issues, and when i picked it up, they also found an engine mount U/S.
All done FOC under warranty.
Didnt have a clue about the engine mount as it was an active type, which you wouldnt know was working or not.
Went in for a couple of issues, and when i picked it up, they also found an engine mount U/S.
All done FOC under warranty.
Didnt have a clue about the engine mount as it was an active type, which you wouldnt know was working or not.
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