Electrical woes..
Discussion
Hi Peeps...I still have issues starting the wedge..The starter cranks for a few seconds then stops then starts again and then makes the over crank noise!!..I thought that maybe due to the alternator burning out it could done some damage to the starter so yesterday i had it replaced with a second-hand one, It all seemed ok to start with and then when i stopped to do a little shopping and tried to start it it flattened the battery and needed the booster pack..I cleaned the earth strap connections and mounting point, I also changed the loop termial on the brown wire that comes from the bulkhead to the negative terminal on the battery...Im now thinking perhaps i disturbed a wire when i tested the second-hand indicator stalks a couple of weeks back??..I did have an issue before with the ignition wiring, Needless to say it is a right fugging mess under there and i will have to check all the connections but will need the steering wheel off and possibly the seat out to do so as there is hardly any slack on the wires...Has anyone had their wiring replaced from ignition switch to starter or is there a loom available as i cannot locate one..It looks like it will cost an arm and a leg to rectify..Im starting to hear Mr jones in my head!!..."Why,Why,Why"..You know the rest...Cheers..Ziga
mrzigazaga said:
Hi Peeps...I still have issues starting the wedge..The starter cranks for a few seconds then stops then starts again and then makes the over crank noise!!..I thought that maybe due to the alternator burning out it could done some damage to the starter so yesterday i had it replaced with a second-hand one, It all seemed ok to start with and then when i stopped to do a little shopping and tried to start it it flattened the battery and needed the booster pack..I cleaned the earth strap connections and mounting point, I also changed the loop termial on the brown wire that comes from the bulkhead to the negative terminal on the battery...Im now thinking perhaps i disturbed a wire when i tested the second-hand indicator stalks a couple of weeks back??..I did have an issue before with the ignition wiring, Needless to say it is a right fugging mess under there and i will have to check all the connections but will need the steering wheel off and possibly the seat out to do so as there is hardly any slack on the wires...Has anyone had their wiring replaced from ignition switch to starter or is there a loom available as i cannot locate one..It looks like it will cost an arm and a leg to rectify..Im starting to hear Mr jones in my head!!..."Why,Why,Why"..You know the rest...Cheers..Ziga
There should only be ONE wire from the ignition to the starter (will starter solenoid) , the main feed should be direct to the battery.Mark,
Some things to consider.
There are two types of electrical faults.
One where a component has gone north or there is a bad connection or broken wire.
The second type is when someone is guessing and starts moving wires.
Lets try to keep it the first one!
You have an electric fan correct. Does it continue running after the car is switched off? Fans use a lot of 'lectric
As you have swapped the starter motor I guess the connections there are good.
Clean, dab of dielectric grease, and tight. Same for the battery terminals.
When it fails I assume you still hear the click from the solonoid, so stay away from under the dash, that proves key to solonoid.
I suggest giving the first starter motor a good clean up and check that the solonoid flies in when 12v is applied. (and it turns of course)
How old is the battery?
It started when using the starter pack, yes
Some things to consider.
There are two types of electrical faults.
One where a component has gone north or there is a bad connection or broken wire.
The second type is when someone is guessing and starts moving wires.
Lets try to keep it the first one!
You have an electric fan correct. Does it continue running after the car is switched off? Fans use a lot of 'lectric
As you have swapped the starter motor I guess the connections there are good.
Clean, dab of dielectric grease, and tight. Same for the battery terminals.
When it fails I assume you still hear the click from the solonoid, so stay away from under the dash, that proves key to solonoid.
I suggest giving the first starter motor a good clean up and check that the solonoid flies in when 12v is applied. (and it turns of course)
How old is the battery?
It started when using the starter pack, yes
Thanks chaps..Havent got a meter unfortunately..Been trying to figure out from the bible whats what but to no avail..Would there be a relay in between the ignition and starter?..Also the card which has the diagram of the relay board on it is all arse about face..So thats a great help..Cheers..Ziga
Are you sure your alternator problem is solved as it sounds to me , you may still be draining your battery when using the car, hence weak battery and success with battery pack. Check with meter that you are getting 14+ volts when engine is running. When did you last renew your battery? Its winter now and bitterly cold. Its a battery killer.
Tony. TCB.
Tony. TCB.
Cheers peeps..I had the alternator checked and it is charging the battery..However it does seem to happen when the battery is a bit low or ive been on short journeys, Although yesterday i did a 13 mile return journey and stopped for around an hour and then it had trouble starting..And yes the fan is still coming on when i switch off so it could well be the battery..It was new but a cheapie..(on-line)..last year and it has suffered some abuse with all the starting issues previously, Also i fast charged it a few times, Which i suppose is not a good thing..Its only a 35 amp so initially the power is low on a good day..Im limited to the size of the battery as the compartment is only 165mm..(Max)..wide and the only high capacity battery that will fit in there is an optima red top and they are not cheap..perhaps this is where the fault lies..And i should get saving!!..Cheers..Ziga
PS:I did notice that after a few cranks the volt gauge on my dash is indicating around 10-11 volts..It may well be lower..It also flicks like its ticking when the car is running..From what looks like 13 to 14V..Every second..Perhaps the wires have been mistakenly put back from the clock and vice-versa..
PS:I did notice that after a few cranks the volt gauge on my dash is indicating around 10-11 volts..It may well be lower..It also flicks like its ticking when the car is running..From what looks like 13 to 14V..Every second..Perhaps the wires have been mistakenly put back from the clock and vice-versa..
Edited by mrzigazaga on Friday 10th February 12:42
Zig have mentioned before matey ... the problems you had with the alternator may well have finished off your battery but a well known failure in this area is the heavy cable going to the starter as this gets hot from the engine and exhaust manifold / down pipes. It often goes dry and loses its ability to conduct all those amps on crank. If in doubt or it looks a bit nasty replace.
Chris
Chris
Mark,
Long term you might want to consider dumping the electric fan for a clutch fan as you have that option with an upright rad.
Electric fans take upto 20 amps, so they they don't have to run for long to drain off some needed watts after parking.
A clutch fan usually has much beefier blades, cools really well and only becomes "a load" when in traffic or on idle, when driving they mostly freewheel.
Considering you have a limit on battery capacity this may help.
Also simple is good.
Long term you might want to consider dumping the electric fan for a clutch fan as you have that option with an upright rad.
Electric fans take upto 20 amps, so they they don't have to run for long to drain off some needed watts after parking.
A clutch fan usually has much beefier blades, cools really well and only becomes "a load" when in traffic or on idle, when driving they mostly freewheel.
Considering you have a limit on battery capacity this may help.
Also simple is good.
Hi peeps...Went out for a drive earlier..It started ok even though there was a slight pause between turning the key and the starter engaging..Went locally and stopped a couple of times before it had fully warmed up so the fan didnt have to kick in..It seemed ok..The volt gauge was showing about 10-11v before cranking so there might not be enough CCA to start with and as suggested the alternator could of buckled a plate or two when it decided to reverse polarity..The live feed from battery looks fine..NOW..I have looked into replacing the electric fan with a clutch fan as i have been advised that they are more efficient than the electric but i could only find one supplier of the parts and it comes to 160 euros + delivery so i might be better off getting a new battery..Yeah if only i could find one that is under 165mm wide x 60amp..The only other option is to re-locate it in the boot..I have found an optima RTS3.7 battery that says it is 162mm wide but a separate product search brings up the same battery but says its 172mm wide so i will have to phone them to clarify..Does anyone jnbow what the 280 needs as far a cranking amps?..The bible says 60amp..500+ CCA..I thought it was around 450?..Cheers..Ziga
My advice is -
1. Buy a digital multimeter. They are very cheap, and worth their weight in gold. You need one to measure voltage and resistance.
2. Try to approach the problems logically and analyse as you go, otherwise you end up in a worse mess (and possibly quite a bit poorer) and still won't have found out the real problem.
To the likely causes ....
1. Battery
On the basis your alternator failed, suspect the battery. Have it tested at a good battery place. You can't test CCA yourself. This will show if it's the battery or not. I think a 2.8 needs 400-450 CCA to turn over smartly. Battery should show about 12.5 or more volts.
2. Wiring
At 400 odd amps, ANY dodgy connection is going to cause slow (or no) cranking. Check the big black cable from batt positive to starter for kinks (could be broken inside), and check the ends are secure and eyelets clean. DON'T FORGET TO CHECK THE EARTH STRAP IN THE SAME WAY. the earth strap carries the same load back to the battery, but is often overlooked. Check resistance of the cables. It should be ZERO (or, like 0.01 Ohm or thereabouts, whatever the meter gets down to)
3. Starter
Starters can go bad, the brushes can wear out, the engagment solenoid can gum up, and so on.
If you're not afrid to take it apart, you can, clean and inspect everything. I've also once had a problem where the engagement solenoid (the small cylinder on the top of starter) had a broken wire - it sometimes worked and sometimes didn't
Hope this helps !!
1. Buy a digital multimeter. They are very cheap, and worth their weight in gold. You need one to measure voltage and resistance.
2. Try to approach the problems logically and analyse as you go, otherwise you end up in a worse mess (and possibly quite a bit poorer) and still won't have found out the real problem.
To the likely causes ....
1. Battery
On the basis your alternator failed, suspect the battery. Have it tested at a good battery place. You can't test CCA yourself. This will show if it's the battery or not. I think a 2.8 needs 400-450 CCA to turn over smartly. Battery should show about 12.5 or more volts.
2. Wiring
At 400 odd amps, ANY dodgy connection is going to cause slow (or no) cranking. Check the big black cable from batt positive to starter for kinks (could be broken inside), and check the ends are secure and eyelets clean. DON'T FORGET TO CHECK THE EARTH STRAP IN THE SAME WAY. the earth strap carries the same load back to the battery, but is often overlooked. Check resistance of the cables. It should be ZERO (or, like 0.01 Ohm or thereabouts, whatever the meter gets down to)
3. Starter
Starters can go bad, the brushes can wear out, the engagment solenoid can gum up, and so on.
If you're not afrid to take it apart, you can, clean and inspect everything. I've also once had a problem where the engagement solenoid (the small cylinder on the top of starter) had a broken wire - it sometimes worked and sometimes didn't
Hope this helps !!
Hi Peeps..Found some high capacity batteries that will fit into tight spaces..Theres one called an MX5 which has 500 CCA..Its not cheap though..There is a 420..(053) which will fit that is cheaper but maybe cheaper isnt always the best route!!..I did read on my exisiting battery that it has 360 cold start which is not enough..I might just go for the higher capacity..Cheers..Ziga
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=b...
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=b...
RCK974X said:
My advice is -
1. Buy a digital multimeter. They are very cheap, and worth their weight in gold. You need one to measure voltage and resistance.
2. Try to approach the problems logically and analyse as you go, otherwise you end up in a worse mess (and possibly quite a bit poorer) and still won't have found out the real problem.
Hi Mark1. Buy a digital multimeter. They are very cheap, and worth their weight in gold. You need one to measure voltage and resistance.
2. Try to approach the problems logically and analyse as you go, otherwise you end up in a worse mess (and possibly quite a bit poorer) and still won't have found out the real problem.
For a start lets hope history doesn't repeat itself!
The above has been suggested on more than one occaion (Fuel and water systems come to mind) so try and go by the good advice above. Dont just jump from one thing to another!
You know it makes sense!
Andy
Edited by Mr Tank on Saturday 11th February 08:13
king around with it) Im pretty sure ive got a viscous fan in the garage somewhere!http://justcarbatteries.co.uk/index.php/varta-blac...
Mark this is the battery on mine only 300 CCA and it does the trick,had a new alternator only last Nov about £70 from factors as my volt gauge was going from 10-17v which you could see the lights getting brighter at times internal regulator fault, as from earlier replies maybe it is something else causing the prob mine has viscous fan not electrical driven good luck with the prob
gra
Mark this is the battery on mine only 300 CCA and it does the trick,had a new alternator only last Nov about £70 from factors as my volt gauge was going from 10-17v which you could see the lights getting brighter at times internal regulator fault, as from earlier replies maybe it is something else causing the prob mine has viscous fan not electrical driven good luck with the prob
gra
Thanks for all the info chaps...I went to a battery supplier this morning and we looked at all the alternatives..There was one that was 163mm wide and it was a 55AH with 500CCA..BUT...The battery compartment of mine goes from 164mm at the bulkhead and then tapers to 160mm towards the engine which was a real pisser..There is another option which is the numax 55AH with 500CCA and its only 130 wide but its not cheap and he doesnt stock them..Then he asked what it was doing and said it was not the battery and sounds more like an ignition fault, He has offered to check it next week and if need be feed a new ignition wire via a relay to the starter...He suggested it would be quicker and easier but would still like some readings..He was a man in his senior years and has worked on TVRs before..And in his words he said.."They are a bloody nightmare".."But then most kit cars are"!!..I winced a bit but may just let him have a look..At least he didnt try to sell me a battery when i might not need one..My compartment measures 160-164mm W X 310mm L and i have around 220-240mm max H with terminals...I did tidy up some loose and ill fitting wires earlier also but made no difference..I could maybe do with a bigger amp battery but for a while i had no problem with it and its just lately that it has started to play up again..I did question him as regards to what damage the alternator could of done when it burnt out but he said if it didnt melt any wire then it shouldnt of done any damage to either the battery or connections...Looks like its fingers crossed for next week...Cheers,,Ziga
"They are a bloody nightmare...Kit cars....."
Probably because they are mostly fibreglass.....
Anyway, that sounds good...a guy who didn't rush to sell you a new battery.
Did you get your current battery tested ???
I've got a Japanese pattern in mine it's a err....I'll go and write it down and get back here....
it's longer than the standard pattern, slightly taller, but no wider, so fits beautifully. I reckon it must be available in UK as well as the antipodes...
Probably because they are mostly fibreglass.....
Anyway, that sounds good...a guy who didn't rush to sell you a new battery.
Did you get your current battery tested ???
I've got a Japanese pattern in mine it's a err....I'll go and write it down and get back here....
it's longer than the standard pattern, slightly taller, but no wider, so fits beautifully. I reckon it must be available in UK as well as the antipodes...
Zig,
I checked my battery and the bits of data I downloaded, and I hope this will be useful for ALL owners....
This is from the Hella Endurant range online catalogue, so it should be available everywhere.
I got my CCA numbers a bit wrong on previous posts, sorry about that .... anyway here goes -
The 'classic' standard small battery, as fitted to lots and lots of ordinary 70's and 80's British cars is called a '126'. It's heavy duty cousin is called a 125.
126 is 240L x 135W x 208H 250 CCA round post
125 is 240L x 135W x 208H 300 CCA round post + and - opposite way round
This is fine for 4 cyl lumps, but not enough amps for V6 and V8 lumps
The 'classic' large battery for the 6's and 8's is called a 127 (or 127HD).
A 128 (128HD) is the same but with + and - posts reversed
127 is 240L x 174W x 211H 450 CCA round post
This is what the 2.8 Capri had fitted in it.
You can see that really it's simply a wider footprint. Unfortunately it won't go in the 280 battery space. (The 350s have a 'dent' moulded in the wing to get this battery range in)
What I found for my 280 is an NS60A
NS60A 238L x 129W x 225H 430 CCA round post
Funny, stats show same length, but it doesn't fit on those moulded rubber bases, as it's definitely longer in the body - probably the 'top' doesn't hang out as much as the 'standard' ones?
A lot of newer cars now use things like the DIN 55 battery (my wife's Volvo 440 for example)
It's too big also for a 280, but will probably fit in a 350 onwards
DIN55 242L x 175W x 175H 470 CCA round or lug posts
Sorry to hit everyone with the long winded stats, but I'm claiming it's useful info !!
I checked my battery and the bits of data I downloaded, and I hope this will be useful for ALL owners....
This is from the Hella Endurant range online catalogue, so it should be available everywhere.
I got my CCA numbers a bit wrong on previous posts, sorry about that .... anyway here goes -
The 'classic' standard small battery, as fitted to lots and lots of ordinary 70's and 80's British cars is called a '126'. It's heavy duty cousin is called a 125.
126 is 240L x 135W x 208H 250 CCA round post
125 is 240L x 135W x 208H 300 CCA round post + and - opposite way round
This is fine for 4 cyl lumps, but not enough amps for V6 and V8 lumps
The 'classic' large battery for the 6's and 8's is called a 127 (or 127HD).
A 128 (128HD) is the same but with + and - posts reversed
127 is 240L x 174W x 211H 450 CCA round post
This is what the 2.8 Capri had fitted in it.
You can see that really it's simply a wider footprint. Unfortunately it won't go in the 280 battery space. (The 350s have a 'dent' moulded in the wing to get this battery range in)
What I found for my 280 is an NS60A
NS60A 238L x 129W x 225H 430 CCA round post
Funny, stats show same length, but it doesn't fit on those moulded rubber bases, as it's definitely longer in the body - probably the 'top' doesn't hang out as much as the 'standard' ones?
A lot of newer cars now use things like the DIN 55 battery (my wife's Volvo 440 for example)
It's too big also for a 280, but will probably fit in a 350 onwards
DIN55 242L x 175W x 175H 470 CCA round or lug posts
Sorry to hit everyone with the long winded stats, but I'm claiming it's useful info !!
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