No contract?

[Caractacus]

Hi All,

A good friend (who runs their own business) has a chap working for him on 100% commission. He's not made any dosh since starting (Nov 2011) and has just accepted a 'normal' job that pays a wage. He starts on the 20th of this month.

The thing is, there no contract in place and he expects to be able to do the commission job as well (after hrs and n Saturday) My friend wants him to leave and never darken his doorstep again (so to speak) as he's not a good worker (hence never making any dosh - never puts in the time req'd).

So, does a formal letter giving notice have to be given?

Is this a 'can 'o' worms' ?

TIA,

C.

[Eric Mc]

How long was he an employee?

What about the Minimum Wage?

[Countdown]

if it's "commish only" what's the problem ? Any business this guy generates will be in his own time / at his own cost, surely?

[Steffan]

Caractacus said:

Hi All,

A good friend (who runs their own business) has a chap working for him on 100% commission. He's not made any dosh since starting (Nov 2011) and has just accepted a 'normal' job that pays a wage. He starts on the 20th of this month.

The thing is, there no contract in place and he expects to be able to do the commission job as well (after hrs and n Saturday) My friend wants him to leave and never darken his doorstep again (so to speak) as he's not a good worker (hence never making any dosh - never puts in the time req'd).

So, does a formal letter giving notice have to be given?

Is this a 'can 'o' worms' ?

TIA,

C.

Probably.

There is a contract by virtue of the conduct of the two parties and the relationship.

Just not expressed in writing.

I would seek advice from a competent local solicitor who is an employment specialist. BEFORE termination!!!!!!!

[Caractacus]

Countdown said:

if it's "commish only" what's the problem ? Any business this guy generates will be in his own time / at his own cost, surely?

That's what I thought (on the comm only) however he doesn't have the right attitude towards clients and could well damage the business due to this.

My friend wants him gone and gone for good.

[jimslops]

Caractacus said:

That's what I thought (on the comm only) however he doesn't have the right attitude towards clients and could well damage the business due to this.

My friend wants him gone and gone for good.

No contract? Tell him to leave (give him notice if he wants to play safe) Even contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on for the first year.

[Countdown]

Caractacus said:

Countdown said:

if it's "commish only" what's the problem ? Any business this guy generates will be in his own time / at his own cost, surely?

That's what I thought (on the comm only) however he doesn't have the right attitude towards clients and could well damage the business due to this.

My friend wants him gone and gone for good.

Fair enough. Letter should be sufficient. Actually as there is nothing in writing I'm not sure if even a Letter is required. (the letter would be to formally give notice but as there's no contract there can't be a contractual notice period IYSWIM).

[jimslops]

Countdown said:

Fair enough. Letter should be sufficient. Actually as there is nothing in writing I'm not sure if even a Letter is required. (the letter would be to formally give notice but as there's no contract there can't be a contractual notice period IYSWIM).

Exactly, just tell him do to one (nicely).

[Steffan]

jimslops said:

Caractacus said:

That's what I thought (on the comm only) however he doesn't have the right attitude towards clients and could well damage the business due to this.

My friend wants him gone and gone for good.

No contract? Tell him to leave (give him notice if he wants to play safe) Even contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on for the first year.

Regrettably I have dealt with two cases of unfair dismissal where the dismissal occurred within the first year.

Both cases went in favour of the ex employee. Hence my caution.

[jimslops]

Steffan said:

Regrettably I have dealt with two cases of unfair dismissal where the dismissal occurred within the first year.

Both cases went in favour of the ex employee. Hence my caution.

Interesting. An MD friend of mine who has a close friend with a HR company told me that "People can be given their notice without going through any procedures within the first 12months", ie can just get rid of them as long as they have enough notice (1month/3months). I mentioned this to someone before who disagreed...so I am none the wiser...

[Countdown]

Steffan said:

Regrettably I have dealt with two cases of unfair dismissal where the dismissal occurred within the first year.

Both cases went in favour of the ex employee. Hence my caution.

I thought dismissal during the first 12 months could only be unfair if it was on the grounds of race, disability, pregnant, young children, sexual orientation?

[Davel]

Well if he has produced no sales to date, then surely you have grounds to terminate.

He's a sales guy FFS!

[Steffan]

jimslops said:

Steffan said:

Regrettably I have dealt with two cases of unfair dismissal where the dismissal occurred within the first year.

Both cases went in favour of the ex employee. Hence my caution.

Interesting. An MD friend of mine who has a close friend with a HR company told me that "People can be given their notice without going through any procedures within the first 12months", ie can just get rid of them as long as they have enough notice (1month/3months). I mentioned this to someone before who disagreed...so I am none the wiser...

As a general principle there is little security in the first 12 months of employment. But cases can be brought.

The two I dealt with were brought on Racial Discrimination and Sexual Discrimination grounds. I did repeatedly advise the clients that they would lose. They thought they knew best.

I did advise them that the Tribunal could ignore the 12 month general rule. And they did.

I did advise them that the evidence was really unpleasantly in favour of the ex` employee in both cases.
The clients thought that they knew better again. Wrong

Two expensive mistakes, Tribunals do not like such acts.

Get advice. Follow the advice. Employment law in the UK is a minefield.

[jimslops]

Steffan said:

As a general principle there is little security in the first 12 months of employment. But cases can be brought.

The two I dealt with were brought on Racial Discrimination and Sexual Discrimination grounds. I did repeatedly advise the clients that they would lose. They thought they knew best.

I did advise them that the Tribunal could ignore the 12 month general rule. And they did.

I did advise them that the evidence was really unpleasantly in favour of the ex` employee in both cases.
The clients thought that they knew better again. Wrong

Two expensive mistakes, Tribunals do not like such acts.

Get advice. Follow the advice. Employment law in the UK is a minefield.

What sort of evidence did they have?

[Steffan]

I cannot reveal the details.

But it was compelling. And unpleasant. Made headlines.

I did keep warning them.

They simply were uncompromising and wrong.

Their privilege. Their cost.

[jimslops]

Steffan said:

I cannot reveal the details.

But it was compelling. And unpleasant. Made headlines.

I did keep warning them.

They simply were uncompromising and wrong.

Their privilege. Their cost.

So it seems there is a sort-of 12 month rule. However, the main rule is to seek advice...

[Countdown]

jimslops said:

So it seems there is a sort-of 12 month rule.

Only in the cases of discrimination. I can't see it applying in this case.

[jimslops]

Countdown said:

Only in the cases of discrimination. I can't see it applying in this case.

Indeed, my wording was vague. 12 month rule in that you can be 'got rid off' for not performing for instance.

[Caractacus]

Thanks for the info, chaps.