Headteacher Forecast Muslim Regions in 1985 Was he Right?
Discussion
In 1985 Ray Hunniford, an outstanding head teacher in Bradford wrote an article for the Right Wing Salisbury Review warning that there were a
"growing number of Asians whose aim is to preserve as intact as possible the values and attitudes of the Indian sub-continent within a framework of British social and political privilege, ie to produce Asian regions".
Full article at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16968930
I would like to respectfully suggest a reasoned and sensible discussion on this interesting subject. Hopefully 25 years later the UK is better placed to make more sense of what were then, very controversial thoughts.
This is no place for racial taunts or racial abuse of any sort whatsoever.
My interest is in whether, in fact Ray Hunniford was actually correct in anticipating areas within the UK where life if quite different in its process than in the mainstream life of the UK.
Facts please, not abuse.
"growing number of Asians whose aim is to preserve as intact as possible the values and attitudes of the Indian sub-continent within a framework of British social and political privilege, ie to produce Asian regions".
Full article at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16968930
I would like to respectfully suggest a reasoned and sensible discussion on this interesting subject. Hopefully 25 years later the UK is better placed to make more sense of what were then, very controversial thoughts.
This is no place for racial taunts or racial abuse of any sort whatsoever.
My interest is in whether, in fact Ray Hunniford was actually correct in anticipating areas within the UK where life if quite different in its process than in the mainstream life of the UK.
Facts please, not abuse.
The other bits in his article are also prescient. I can't imagine why the BBC decided to leave out
Ray Honeyford said:
The presence in the state education service of a growing number of teachers and advisers who, quite correctly, perceive the professional advantage of supporting the notion of the multi-racial curriculum urged by the authorities, and of making colour and race significant, high-profile issues in the classroom.
•The successful creation by the race relations lobby of a dubious, officially-approved argot which functions to maintain a whole set of questionable beliefs and attitudes about education and race — attitudes which have much more to do with professional opportunism than the educational progress of ethnic minority children.
http://www.salisburyreview.co.uk/Ray_Honeyford.html•The successful creation by the race relations lobby of a dubious, officially-approved argot which functions to maintain a whole set of questionable beliefs and attitudes about education and race — attitudes which have much more to do with professional opportunism than the educational progress of ethnic minority children.
davepoth said:
The other bits in his article are also prescient. I can't imagine why the BBC decided to leave out
Clearly a far sighted and educated man..Ray Honeyford said:
The presence in the state education service of a growing number of teachers and advisers who, quite correctly, perceive the professional advantage of supporting the notion of the multi-racial curriculum urged by the authorities, and of making colour and race significant, high-profile issues in the classroom.
•The successful creation by the race relations lobby of a dubious, officially-approved argot which functions to maintain a whole set of questionable beliefs and attitudes about education and race — attitudes which have much more to do with professional opportunism than the educational progress of ethnic minority children.
http://www.salisburyreview.co.uk/Ray_Honeyford.html•The successful creation by the race relations lobby of a dubious, officially-approved argot which functions to maintain a whole set of questionable beliefs and attitudes about education and race — attitudes which have much more to do with professional opportunism than the educational progress of ethnic minority children.
He was made into a pariah at the time.
I do wonder whether we have really learned anything in the last 25 years.
The reality of Shiria Courts in the UK and press restrictions on trial reporting are beginning to worry me.
We are allowing alternative lifestyles to change the basic approaches to living in the UK. The values of such secular societies are different.
Something Fay Hunniford was alluding to but society could not discuss together then.
Can we now? No one has ever asked whether we want this.
Should there be informed consultation for such a change in society?
3rd generation muslim immigrant here 
RH was right at the time but I think what he was seeing was the "height of influence" (or the last throes) of the 1st generation / 2nd generation of muslim immigrants, the ones who still felt they were "Pakistani" at their core and worried about western influences "corrupting" their offspring.
Sharia courts are insignificant in number and, with reference to any trials, I'm pretty confident that muslims would want these cockroaches exposed to the glare of publicity as much as anybody else.
RH was right at the time but I think what he was seeing was the "height of influence" (or the last throes) of the 1st generation / 2nd generation of muslim immigrants, the ones who still felt they were "Pakistani" at their core and worried about western influences "corrupting" their offspring.
Sharia courts are insignificant in number and, with reference to any trials, I'm pretty confident that muslims would want these cockroaches exposed to the glare of publicity as much as anybody else.
There is nothing enlightened in tolerating, let alone encouraging, ignorant superstition.
Faith "education", whether the most fundamentalist Pastafarian, the mildest CofE lite or any other, is child abuse; any education that fails to produce sceptical enquirers has failed...
Our society has no use for ignorant peasants, we should neither be training them nor allowing others to do so.
Faith "education", whether the most fundamentalist Pastafarian, the mildest CofE lite or any other, is child abuse; any education that fails to produce sceptical enquirers has failed...
Our society has no use for ignorant peasants, we should neither be training them nor allowing others to do so.
fluffnik said:
There is nothing enlightened in tolerating, let alone encouraging, ignorant superstition.
Faith "education", whether the most fundamentalist Pastafarian, the mildest CofE lite or any other, is child abuse; any education that fails to produce sceptical enquirers has failed...
Our society has no use for ignorant peasants, we should neither be training them nor allowing others to do so.
What do you call 'faith' education?Faith "education", whether the most fundamentalist Pastafarian, the mildest CofE lite or any other, is child abuse; any education that fails to produce sceptical enquirers has failed...
Our society has no use for ignorant peasants, we should neither be training them nor allowing others to do so.
My son attends a Catholic college, but, at most he is agnostic, more likely an atheist. I certainly am.
There are large numbers of Muslims, Sikhs, and other faiths at the college, as well as those who have none.
Is the fact that it is organised by the Catholic Church making it a 'faith' school?
ExChrispy Porker said:
What do you call 'faith' education?
Any that presents any particular religion as if it were "true".ExChrispy Porker said:
My son attends a Catholic college, but, at most he is agnostic, more likely an atheist. I certainly am.
Why expose him do delusion? Not all minds are strong...ExChrispy Porker said:
There are large numbers of Muslims, Sikhs, and other faiths at the college, as well as those who have none.
Is the fact that it is organised by the Catholic Church making it a 'faith' school?
Whilst the Catholic Church has repeatedly and unrepentantly shown itself to be particularly unfit to be left alone with children I am entirely uneasy with any religious organisation running educational institutions, I am utterly disgusted that the state funds them to do so.Is the fact that it is organised by the Catholic Church making it a 'faith' school?
Religious indoctrination is every bit as much abuse as what kiddyfiddling priests get up to.
fluffnik said:
Whilst the Catholic Church has repeatedly and unrepentantly shown itself to be particularly unfit to be left alone with children I am entirely uneasy with any religious organisation running educational institutions, I am utterly disgusted that the state funds them to do so.
Religious indoctrination is every bit as much abuse as what kiddyfiddling priests get up to.
What I am saying is that there is no indoctrination. Or if there is, it is spectacularly unsuccessful!Religious indoctrination is every bit as much abuse as what kiddyfiddling priests get up to.
It is a good 6th form college though, and massively oversubscribed.
"growing number of Asians whose aim is to preserve as intact as possible the values and attitudes of the Indian sub-continent within a framework of British social and political privilege, ie to produce Asian regions".
I think it is not a case of being an 'aim' as such, but what happens naturally. People like to gather (largely) in areas where people are similar to them. Certainly understandable back in the 80s when people were perhaps less welcoming. I know of examples where Asian families living in 'white' areas have had lots of racial abuse and had their windows smashed in and so on - far less likely to happen in an area with a lot of other Asians I would suggest..
Nowadays you see it with Eastern Europeans, in my city there are certainly areas where EE have bunched up as opposed to being spread all over the palce.
Its usually in the city centre or built up areas too - so maybe that plays a part.
I think it is not a case of being an 'aim' as such, but what happens naturally. People like to gather (largely) in areas where people are similar to them. Certainly understandable back in the 80s when people were perhaps less welcoming. I know of examples where Asian families living in 'white' areas have had lots of racial abuse and had their windows smashed in and so on - far less likely to happen in an area with a lot of other Asians I would suggest..
Nowadays you see it with Eastern Europeans, in my city there are certainly areas where EE have bunched up as opposed to being spread all over the palce.
Its usually in the city centre or built up areas too - so maybe that plays a part.
In theory im against any sort of publicly funded state school.
However, in practice, im sure many secular schools are run by leftist zealots who preach their own narrow minded, almost religious take on everything from global warming, capitalism and so forth.
If they get the results and turn out better rounded kids than the typical marxist run state schools i'll grudgingly support faith schools.
However, in practice, im sure many secular schools are run by leftist zealots who preach their own narrow minded, almost religious take on everything from global warming, capitalism and so forth.
If they get the results and turn out better rounded kids than the typical marxist run state schools i'll grudgingly support faith schools.
Mojooo said:
BTW is is asian regions or muslim regions?
This. The media never dare narrow it down to 'muslim', but reading between the lines, its usually fairly obvious. Statistically, non muslim Asians either perform equally or even outperform the white populations. Muslim, both Pakistani, and even more so Bangladeshi, underperform.
Well Pakistanis and Bangladeshis tend to be Muslim and Indians Hindu and Sikh. The fact that they under perform has nothing to do with their religion but other cultural issues. So whilst it might be factually correct to say areas with high Muslim population under perform, it doesn't necessarily identify the reason IMO.
I think there will be differences in the enxt 20 years though - whilst you will still have underperforming peopel from those backgroudns, a lot of the second geenration immigrants will be well integrated into British life and their children particularly will probably perform the same as most english (etc) kids. I know quite a few bangladeshi/Pakistani people and their kids are certainly more 'integrated' than their parents were.
I think there will be differences in the enxt 20 years though - whilst you will still have underperforming peopel from those backgroudns, a lot of the second geenration immigrants will be well integrated into British life and their children particularly will probably perform the same as most english (etc) kids. I know quite a few bangladeshi/Pakistani people and their kids are certainly more 'integrated' than their parents were.
Mojooo said:
a lot of the second geenration immigrants will be well integrated into British life and their children particularly will probably perform the same as most english (etc) kids.
I'm not sure that is entirely true. First generation immigrants will have a clear idea why they came; the second generation will be torn between their lives and the culture their parents want them to remember and respect.I don't think any of the 7/7 bombers were first gen.
I know a lot of asian people - you get a broad spectrum - some are very 'old school' and some are very 'modern'. Over time though I think more and more will become what one might call 'more British' - that is not to say they won't (or shouldn't) retain some of their own cultural norms.
You will of course always get people who retain strongly their heritage. That being said, their kids are much more likely to be taught English from a young age from parents who can speak it etc so they will more likely get a better chance at 'peforming' than some of the older generation ever had.
Obviously this generation have different problems to deal with - a poorer education system for a start.
You will of course always get people who retain strongly their heritage. That being said, their kids are much more likely to be taught English from a young age from parents who can speak it etc so they will more likely get a better chance at 'peforming' than some of the older generation ever had.
Obviously this generation have different problems to deal with - a poorer education system for a start.
What a brilliant article, and how sad and ridiculous that the man was hounded out of his job and made into a pyriah.
The points raised about any given ethnic group are incidental, but his criticism of the way in which multiculturalism is discussed, or not, is absolutely spot on today as when he wrote it.
The points raised about any given ethnic group are incidental, but his criticism of the way in which multiculturalism is discussed, or not, is absolutely spot on today as when he wrote it.
Countdown said:
3rd generation muslim immigrant here
RH was right at the time but I think what he was seeing was the "height of influence" (or the last throes) of the 1st generation / 2nd generation of muslim immigrants, the ones who still felt they were "Pakistani" at their core and worried about western influences "corrupting" their offspring.
Sharia courts are insignificant in number and, with reference to any trials, I'm pretty confident that muslims would want these cockroaches exposed to the glare of publicity as much as anybody else.
The number of "nutters" is very limited, I think we can all agree on that. But the bit that's concerning is that those who choose to speak as the voice of the "Muslim Community" in the UK - certainly the ones given a voice by the media anyway - do seem to be disproportionately drawn from those "nutters", and there isn't a public voice for a more moderate interpretation of Islam to counter that.RH was right at the time but I think what he was seeing was the "height of influence" (or the last throes) of the 1st generation / 2nd generation of muslim immigrants, the ones who still felt they were "Pakistani" at their core and worried about western influences "corrupting" their offspring.
Sharia courts are insignificant in number and, with reference to any trials, I'm pretty confident that muslims would want these cockroaches exposed to the glare of publicity as much as anybody else.
But that isn't the real problem. For centuries, immigrants to the UK knew that this was a place they could do business, but they had to play by our rules. Somehow in the last 50 years or so we lost that.
I've noticed a few 'Asian' areas become more pronounced near me in recent years. I don't personally have an issue with it as generally people of all races / religions seem to settle in areas where they can feel part of a local community.
For me though the worrying trend is the growing number of racial attacks and the general fear that you cant / won't go to a certain area because you're a certain race.
I'm not singling out a particular race out but all that seems to be happening is that each 'single race community' (whether white, Asian or other) will only become more and more hostile to another race.
Take that poor lad that was shot point blank in the face in Salford on Boxing Day. The police won't say it but anyone who knows the exact location (Ordsall) will know that it's predominantly white and that it's highly likely that the lad was killed just because he was of Asian origin. What's that going to do to lads that live in neighbouring areas that are predominantly asian? All they'll do is become more bitter towards another race and the circle will go on and on.
Then you have all these marches that seem to be clashing every other week.
I guess what I'm trying to say is 'why can't everyone just get along'? I'm quite well travelled and have been fortunate enough to have never experienced any racial hatred in other countries. Hanoi springs to mind as being the most out of place I've ever felt. I was there one day (allegedly in the wrong part of town) and didn't see another white guy. I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb and everyone was staring but at no time did I ever feel any hostility. I'm not sure you could say the same coming to parts of the uk being non-white and ending up in the wrong part of town.
For me though the worrying trend is the growing number of racial attacks and the general fear that you cant / won't go to a certain area because you're a certain race.
I'm not singling out a particular race out but all that seems to be happening is that each 'single race community' (whether white, Asian or other) will only become more and more hostile to another race.
Take that poor lad that was shot point blank in the face in Salford on Boxing Day. The police won't say it but anyone who knows the exact location (Ordsall) will know that it's predominantly white and that it's highly likely that the lad was killed just because he was of Asian origin. What's that going to do to lads that live in neighbouring areas that are predominantly asian? All they'll do is become more bitter towards another race and the circle will go on and on.
Then you have all these marches that seem to be clashing every other week.
I guess what I'm trying to say is 'why can't everyone just get along'? I'm quite well travelled and have been fortunate enough to have never experienced any racial hatred in other countries. Hanoi springs to mind as being the most out of place I've ever felt. I was there one day (allegedly in the wrong part of town) and didn't see another white guy. I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb and everyone was staring but at no time did I ever feel any hostility. I'm not sure you could say the same coming to parts of the uk being non-white and ending up in the wrong part of town.
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