Pinto Camshafts
Discussion
I'm rather hoping that "Pumaracing" will share his knowledge here, but, I'm more than grateful for all suggestions.
We have a 2ltr.Pinto engined Fisher Fury which we are using for some Hill Climbing and Sprint events . Spec is:
"Fisher Flowed" I don't know what this means in reality. I mean, I understand what flowing a head means, simply that I don't know how far Fisher took it back in 2000. Quick skim round the chambers with a bit of 80 grit? dunno.
Twin 45s, Piper 285 cam with vernier pulley, lovely large dia. stainless steel 4 branch manifold, Optronic electronic ignition, Omex rev limiter. Racing clutch, Quaife ATB.
The engine reputedly churns out 170bhp, or maybe did in 2000. However, the engine has only covered 4000 miles from new and has great power, great tractability and is easy to drive on the road ( apart from the leg breaking clutch) Always a hoot to drive, but.... surely nowadays with the advent of computer design there must be a camshaft out there that can give us another 10 - 15 bhp without having to do much more than timing it right and not losing too much tractability.
All suggestions gratefully appreciated..... apart from.... Duratec, Zetec, Bike engine. Ta.
We have a 2ltr.Pinto engined Fisher Fury which we are using for some Hill Climbing and Sprint events . Spec is:
"Fisher Flowed" I don't know what this means in reality. I mean, I understand what flowing a head means, simply that I don't know how far Fisher took it back in 2000. Quick skim round the chambers with a bit of 80 grit? dunno.
Twin 45s, Piper 285 cam with vernier pulley, lovely large dia. stainless steel 4 branch manifold, Optronic electronic ignition, Omex rev limiter. Racing clutch, Quaife ATB.
The engine reputedly churns out 170bhp, or maybe did in 2000. However, the engine has only covered 4000 miles from new and has great power, great tractability and is easy to drive on the road ( apart from the leg breaking clutch) Always a hoot to drive, but.... surely nowadays with the advent of computer design there must be a camshaft out there that can give us another 10 - 15 bhp without having to do much more than timing it right and not losing too much tractability.
All suggestions gratefully appreciated..... apart from.... Duratec, Zetec, Bike engine. Ta.
Cam technology doesn't always move on, especially on older engines - a lot of old performance engines still use profiles designed in the 50's - with great success I might add.
You'd be best off speaking to someone who specialises in Pintos, builds them day in day out and, more importantly, dyno-proves any gains. More often than not these days, a builder will approach someone like Kent and ask for a variety of profiles and see what works on the dyno. Might be worth a quick call to them to see if there have been any new developments or to see if they can tell you who's "hot" in the Pinto world at the moment.
You'd be best off speaking to someone who specialises in Pintos, builds them day in day out and, more importantly, dyno-proves any gains. More often than not these days, a builder will approach someone like Kent and ask for a variety of profiles and see what works on the dyno. Might be worth a quick call to them to see if there have been any new developments or to see if they can tell you who's "hot" in the Pinto world at the moment.
niccis dad said:
surely nowadays with the advent of computer design there must be a camshaft out there that can give us another 10 - 15 bhp without having to do much more than timing it right and not losing too much tractability.
Sorry but nope. You can't do anything more with a cam lobe today than you ever could. The material strength and tappet diameter limit the lift and acceleration from a given duration. If you want more top end you'll lose bottom end. If you do use more duration you'll need more CR to make it work properly so factor in taking the head off and doing all the calculations before skimming it. I'd leave it alone if it runs well and you are happy with the tractability.
Thanks guys for that. Yes, I take what you both say as fact, just had a niggle at the back of my mind that there might be a "trick" camshaft out there that would give us a wee bit more oomph for a small outlay.
Typical Scots thinking! As realistic as believing that independence will benefit us. Shoulda kent better.
Typical Scots thinking! As realistic as believing that independence will benefit us. Shoulda kent better.
There are Camshafts for Pintos that have been developed and made for Specialist builders. These are not sold on the open market.
I would suggest you contact Boss Racing in Dartford Kent. He may or May not supply such a cam but you would benefit from talking to him.
Alan Page / Southern Engines
I would suggest you contact Boss Racing in Dartford Kent. He may or May not supply such a cam but you would benefit from talking to him.
Alan Page / Southern Engines
I should just add a couple of things. The Piper 285 is actually a very mild cam. It only has 270 degrees duration if you look at the spec and is only called a 285 because of Piper's bizzare terminology. It's really just a variant of the 134 "towing cam" that has been mentioned in recent threads. You could use a lot more cam and still retain some degree of road driveability but your main limiting factor is the carbs and clockwork ignition.
TBs and fully mappable ecu would let you use much more duration while still retaining road manners than you'll ever get with carbs which are pretty crude instruments at the best of times.
It also means there is no way you have 170 bhp with that spec and probably more like 150 even if the head is a well ported big valve one. Less still if it's standard valve or badly ported. A trip to the rollers would find out.
Why not whip it up to Wallace Performance in Aberdeen and get a power run? It's not a long drive from Montrose, the rollers are dead accurate and once I'm up in Aberdeen in a few weeks time I'll design a custom cam for you and find the actual 170 bhp it doesn't currently have.
TBs and fully mappable ecu would let you use much more duration while still retaining road manners than you'll ever get with carbs which are pretty crude instruments at the best of times.
It also means there is no way you have 170 bhp with that spec and probably more like 150 even if the head is a well ported big valve one. Less still if it's standard valve or badly ported. A trip to the rollers would find out.
Why not whip it up to Wallace Performance in Aberdeen and get a power run? It's not a long drive from Montrose, the rollers are dead accurate and once I'm up in Aberdeen in a few weeks time I'll design a custom cam for you and find the actual 170 bhp it doesn't currently have.
Edited by Pumaracing on Thursday 16th February 10:37
Dammit! That sounds pretty good to me. The car's actually at Bro's house in Portlethen so it's no big deal to Wallacetune. Actually intend getting her out this weekend and try to reduce a winters sitting flatspots.
Take your point about TB's. We really are'nt in the position to shell out big bucks for what may be an incremental power increase . Seems to me that when you get that far into it, you might just as well look at going the Duratec route, even with our auld Webers on it would still be a more realistic way of upping power at that level.
Having said that, I'm well impressed with your depth of knowledge on this, and, I'm sure we'll end up far wiser regardless which route we go. Thanks a lot. I'll give you a shout after we;ve had a roller session.
Take your point about TB's. We really are'nt in the position to shell out big bucks for what may be an incremental power increase . Seems to me that when you get that far into it, you might just as well look at going the Duratec route, even with our auld Webers on it would still be a more realistic way of upping power at that level.
Having said that, I'm well impressed with your depth of knowledge on this, and, I'm sure we'll end up far wiser regardless which route we go. Thanks a lot. I'll give you a shout after we;ve had a roller session.
Ask yourself do i need more power or do i want it to drive dfferent ? there is no point in wanting more power if its above
say 6k onwards becouse it will be a dog below that plus the car weighs fook all so without the LSD and fancy back end and tyres
it will be going up in smoke.
Id try a torque cam or caravan cam , will give a lot better responce of the throttle and midrange , they seem to run out of puff
anywere from 5800 to 7 + depending.
Its not how much power you have its how its deployed and how you use it !
Climbing the hills is more about good available and useable torque. Don't be misled by higher bhp figures that translate into slower times. I'm trying the new HT 1 e cam this season in a new head and will compare with original HT 1 cam and head on Knockhill lap times.
May be selling original bits, 200+ on Agra dyno with 150 torque.
May be selling original bits, 200+ on Agra dyno with 150 torque.
Kinkell said:
Climbing the hills is more about good available and useable torque. Don't be misled by higher bhp figures that translate into slower times. I'm trying the new HT 1 e cam this season in a new head and will compare with original HT 1 cam and head on Knockhill lap times.
May be selling original bits, 200+ on Agra dyno with 150 torque.
Take your point. Just thinking that there must be a more efficient cam giving a little more power, and maybe with a re-jet some more nice torque. Let me know how you get on at Knockhill.May be selling original bits, 200+ on Agra dyno with 150 torque.
Kinkell said:
Reducing your times is what its all about. My escort was a real handfull on the hills but is reasonable at Kames and comes into its own at Knockhill. I went round Alford 1 sec quicker with 200 bhp pinto than 120 bhp crossflow in same chassis.
Really! 1 sec. quicker with an extra 80 bhp! This on a 70 odd second run. C'mon, at Alford you'd have got the same 1 sec. with bigger brakes. Did you no get that a bit back to front? It's a bit of a rites of passage thing isn't it? You drive the b
ks off the thing and you know that unless you change SOMETHING you're just not going to make any appreciable difference in your times. So you have to look at your options. The camshaft was one of the most cost efficent possible answers to this.We looked at tyres. Running Toyo R888s on 6" rims just now. Looked at uprating to 7" at the rear ( cos that's where it gets all loose, but fun) with ACB10s. For the 4 tyres and 2 x minilite 7 " rims your'e looking at £1,000.00 all delivered, fitted etc.
Will a £400.00 cam upgrade deliver the same times as £1000,00 worth of tyres? Cost no option, do em both!
However, cost is a serious consideration. Maybe if the NHS did a Reaction Renewal Programme then that might have the same outcome as throwing money at the car for us old gits.
Anyway, I guess mumping about what you could achieve if................... is part of the fun of it all.
Slainthe
Barry
Edited by niccis dad on Friday 24th February 20:43
I've had the car since 2006 and bought it to race in the classics at Knockhill after a bit of sorting on speed events. Started with a xflow then twincam then pinto when class changed from 1800 to 2000. I'd always thought of the pinto as a heavy lump more suited to Transit pickups. It is heavy but it has some real poke when revved to 7800 although a rebuild is required every season to keep it happy and reliable. I've wrecked a HT head, broken a cam, split a cylinder, demolished a piston, bent a rod and slowly blown 2 cometic gaskets. BDG motors cost 3 times as much to run as an alternative.
I had to change the rear suspension from Gp 2 spec coilovers back to 10 kg heavier slipper single leafs due to customer complaints and the car was 0.6 secs faster ffs. Just goes to show that old school factory settings that Ford used 30+ years ago are sometimes better than all that modern stuff. My remote 2 way reservoirs are a bit of overkill also, but its easy to set them to zero in the wet.
I had to change the rear suspension from Gp 2 spec coilovers back to 10 kg heavier slipper single leafs due to customer complaints and the car was 0.6 secs faster ffs. Just goes to show that old school factory settings that Ford used 30+ years ago are sometimes better than all that modern stuff. My remote 2 way reservoirs are a bit of overkill also, but its easy to set them to zero in the wet.
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