Rats or water voles?
Discussion
Rats are much bigger and generally bolder so I'd be tempted to go with rats, they are also good swimmers.
Eta Apparently water voles do get mistaken for rats quite a lot, so who knows!! I think it'll come down to the size and tail length.
Voles 160-350g Rats 300-450g
Eta Apparently water voles do get mistaken for rats quite a lot, so who knows!! I think it'll come down to the size and tail length.
Voles 160-350g Rats 300-450g
Edited by bexVN on Monday 27th February 13:25
Edited by bexVN on Monday 27th February 13:27
Head shape is quite different. Water voles are nothing like as athletic as rats, either, so if you see them leaping, they're probably rats. Rats are less likely to swim under water, though - they tend to swim on the surface most of the time.
If it was definitely black, it was a rat - water voles are brown.
If it was definitely black, it was a rat - water voles are brown.
Sam_68 said:
Head shape is quite different. Water voles are nothing like as athletic as rats, either, so if you see them leaping, they're probably rats. Rats are less likely to swim under water, though - they tend to swim on the surface most of the time.
If it was definitely black, it was a rat - water voles are brown.
Thanks ,Sam - I can't tell the colour till it's in water, then it's a problem telling black fronm brown . Head shape - again difficult to see. I was trying to determine if ir was rat/vole from the depth f swim .Toby won't care if he finds then ,if it's rat or Vole - it's just a smal furry bit of vermin to him .He's a large Cairn, something like 11kg ,bred for foxes/badgers/ big rats- so he'll see off a 450g rat with ease . I've even seen him take out a mouse ,that a cat let go of . One snap, and mousy went upstairs. He just looked at me and grined, and left te mouse for the cat . And the cat was one of his favurites . If it was definitely black, it was a rat - water voles are brown.
I wouldn't expect rats to swim below the surface. Water voles also tend to make a fairly characteristic 'plop' when they enter the water, not sure if rats do this but suspect not (or not as clear). Voles swim higher and look rounder (like a fat sausage).
Rat tail should look long and light (lighter than the body hair colour), a water vole tail will be much the same colour as its fur (because it is furry) and relatively short.
Voles also often swim directly across ditches and rhynes, so if there is weed cover on the surface you get a water vole width straight line across the surface at 90 degrees to the bank. I'd expect rats to be a bit more random in their swimming directions etc.
Rat tail should look long and light (lighter than the body hair colour), a water vole tail will be much the same colour as its fur (because it is furry) and relatively short.
Voles also often swim directly across ditches and rhynes, so if there is weed cover on the surface you get a water vole width straight line across the surface at 90 degrees to the bank. I'd expect rats to be a bit more random in their swimming directions etc.
Japveesix said:
Voles also often swim directly across ditches and rhynes...
I knew immediately you were from the South West by your use of the word 'rhyne'! 
I agree about the plop - presumably a deliberate warning signal to other voles?
Back when I was a child (before mink had spread so far and water voles were relatively common), I used to catch them by walking along the bank of my local stream until I found a hole, then stamping hard on the bank. This caused the vole to 'plop' out into the water to try and swim off... where you could scoop it up with an angler's landing net.
They have fairly vicious yellow incisors, so you had to be careful handling them, though, and of course such action would be illegal these days unless you're a licenced ecologist.
Sam_68 said:
I knew immediately you were from the South West by your use of the word 'rhyne'!
Indeed, was just going to say rhynes but wasn't sure anyone would understand!Sam_68 said:
Back when I was a child (before mink had spread so far and water voles were relatively common), I used to catch them by walking along the bank of my local stream until I found a hole, then stamping hard on the bank. This caused the vole to 'plop' out into the water to try and swim off... where you could scoop it up with an angler's landing net.
Can picture that working having had them leap out from holes underneath my feet whilst I'm scrabbling around in the undergrowth trying to find signs that they're present 
in all likelihood they're rats - for the simple reason that water voles are vanishingly rare now - there are all sorts of places to report if you DO manage to see one and a lot of conservation in place. I managed to get a video of one a few years back - will have to see if I can find it.
be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
Nightmare said:
in all likelihood they're rats - for the simple reason that water voles are vanishingly rare now - there are all sorts of places to report if you DO manage to see one and a lot of conservation in place.
They're not that rare. Localised extinctions in some areas but still found across most of the country (scarcer around Cornwall/Wales and bits of the South West) where the habitat is right. Far lower numbers than there might have historically been but then that's the case for numerous UK species nowadays.
All the same they could well be rats, especially as the OPs post specifically says the word black, not brown, voles would tend to look brown even with a fleeting glance.
Japveesix said:
They're not that rare. Localised extinctions in some areas but still found across most of the country (scarcer around Cornwall/Wales and bits of the South West) where the habitat is right.
Far lower numbers than there might have historically been but then that's the case for numerous UK species nowadays.
All the same they could well be rats, especially as the OPs post specifically says the word black, not brown, voles would tend to look brown even with a fleeting glance.
they were 89 reported sightings in the totality of 2009 and in Oct 2011 still being reported as 'Britains fastest declining mammal' -i reckon that counts as pretty rare!Far lower numbers than there might have historically been but then that's the case for numerous UK species nowadays.
All the same they could well be rats, especially as the OPs post specifically says the word black, not brown, voles would tend to look brown even with a fleeting glance.
but yeah - could be them...just suggesting the probability would be in favour of the mammal we're allegedly 'never more than 12 feet away from'
Nightmare said:
they were 89 reported sightings in the totality of 2009...
Reported to who, though?I see them reasonably regularly, when I visit local areas of suitable habitat (which isn't that often), but I never report them to anyone... I didn't realise I was supposed to!
Put it this way: I see them more frequently than barn owls, peregrines or bullfinches, despite spending similar amounts of time in those bird's habitats.
Sam_68 said:
Reported to who, though?
I see them reasonably regularly, when I visit local areas of suitable habitat (which isn't that often), but I never report them to anyone... I didn't realise I was supposed to!
Put it this way: I see them more frequently than barn owls, peregrines or bullfinches, despite spending similar amounts of time in those bird's habitats.
lol - yeah hard to argue with that disadvantage of surveys!I see them reasonably regularly, when I visit local areas of suitable habitat (which isn't that often), but I never report them to anyone... I didn't realise I was supposed to!
Put it this way: I see them more frequently than barn owls, peregrines or bullfinches, despite spending similar amounts of time in those bird's habitats.
Every UK wildlife trust is running a reporting project AFAIK. so in theory you should have reported it to whichever one you were in. Herts&Essex even have a dedicated 'water vole' person.
maybe all of them have moved to round you!
Nightmare said:
in all likelihood they're rats - for the simple reason that water voles are vanishingly rare now - there are all sorts of places to report if you DO manage to see one and a lot of conservation in place. I managed to get a video of one a few years back - will have to see if I can find it.
be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
No -I agree.But Id hate to think if he got hold of it that it might be a Vole. His breeding don't care -anything furry gets minced. I've seen him take out a field mouse that a local cat had dropped -it got six feet before he grabbed it and minced it . be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
[quote=Who me ?]
To be fair that's not specific to his breeding, any dog who enjoys catching things will go for anything that's fair game!Nightmare said:
in all likelihood they're rats - for the simple reason that water voles are vanishingly rare now - there are all sorts of places to report if you DO manage to see one and a lot of conservation in place. I managed to get a video of one a few years back - will have to see if I can find it.
be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
No -I agree.But Id hate to think if he got hold of it that it might be a Vole. His breeding don't care -anything furry gets minced. I've seen him take out a field mouse that a local cat had dropped -it got six feet before he grabbed it and minced it . be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
Nightmare said:
they were 89 reported sightings in the totality of 2009 and in Oct 2011 still being reported as 'Britains fastest declining mammal' -i reckon that counts as pretty rare!
but yeah - could be them...just suggesting the probability would be in favour of the mammal we're allegedly 'never more than 12 feet away from'
How many people do you think ever report sightings? I've worked alongside record centres in the South West and know that in Devon for example in 2011 according to sightings there were more hares than rabbits, because no-one ever reports rabbit sightings and they had 3 hare sightings, in a whole year.but yeah - could be them...just suggesting the probability would be in favour of the mammal we're allegedly 'never more than 12 feet away from'
I know water voles are not common however they are widely distributed across the country and still locally abundant in quite a few areas. I carried out numerous surveys for voles in 2009 and 2010 and found lots of signs, and as it happened I never reported those sightings to my local record centre either.
Anyway, records of any animal are not an indicator of anything much expect to give you an idea of distribution largely because even people who work in conservation and look after reserves etc are still to lazy to report sightings of rarer species. 99% of the time the general public don't even know what they're looking at (see OP) and even if they do they either don't care, don't know where to report or see the species daily and don't see the sighting as of any consequence.
Watervoles also live in manky ditches and are very elusive (in general) so sightings will naturally be low and the species as a whole underecorded. See how many weasel or stoat sightings there are for example, both found across the country in all habitats yet very rarely by your avergae person.
But that's by-the-by it was probably still a rat!
Would like update from OP if he gets a better view bexVN said:
[quote=Who me ?]
To be fair that's not specific to his breeding, any dog who enjoys catching things will go for anything that's fair game!Nightmare said:
in all likelihood they're rats - for the simple reason that water voles are vanishingly rare now - there are all sorts of places to report if you DO manage to see one and a lot of conservation in place. I managed to get a video of one a few years back - will have to see if I can find it.
be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
No -I agree.But Id hate to think if he got hold of it that it might be a Vole. His breeding don't care -anything furry gets minced. I've seen him take out a field mouse that a local cat had dropped -it got six feet before he grabbed it and minced it . be very cool if it was. personally i dont thik the swimming depth is that relevant if they're pegging it away from a Cairn! normal behaviour not really applicable.....
There's a story somewhere on their history that in the past the pack would only obey the handler. They only obey those persons they accept, never someone they fear, because basically they can be hurt,but never made to obey,or be frightened.To them they're not little dogs ( mine is a big version at 11kg, and not overweight from health checks), but massive dogs, with small bodies.
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