Discussion
So, I'm looking to buy a 944 s2, with a relatively tight budget. One I've looked at is In good shape but was a cat can write off in 1997 - anyone know how much it'd have been worth then?
I'm not too bothered about the shape of the car, as it's been on the road for 15 years since, but I don't want to overpay. How much do you think the value should diminish because of the history? Will I struggle to insure it or sell it when the time comes?
Other problems the car has are a slow starter for which I think is common, the sunroof doesn't stop when being lowered and the clock is dead..
Any tips appreciated
Hugh
I'm not too bothered about the shape of the car, as it's been on the road for 15 years since, but I don't want to overpay. How much do you think the value should diminish because of the history? Will I struggle to insure it or sell it when the time comes?
Other problems the car has are a slow starter for which I think is common, the sunroof doesn't stop when being lowered and the clock is dead..
Any tips appreciated
Hugh
I need more details in order to be able to give an idea of price. Year, colour, mileage, history would be good as a starter.
The main problem will be is there was major body damage. The galvanised coating on the panels will have become damaged and rust problems start from there onwards. Even a well repaired car like one i used to own will start to show signs of repair eventually. My car was repaired at Spraymaster (Porsche approved bodyshop) and after ten years started to show the areas that had been treated.
The problems that you mentions, slow starting, clock and Sunroof are all low cost repairs. You might be able to fix these yourself using Clarks garage: http://www.clarks-garage.com/. I managed some decent repairs to my fleet of 944s using Clarks garage and i dont know a spanner from a screwdriver.
Lastly, in 1997 a decent 944 S2 in a good colour with the right specification could have been worth between £8k and £4k. I would need more information about the car to confirm a price.
Also, for insurance, no one will care about Cat C write off. . Try RH Specialist insurance: http://www.rhclassicinsurance.co.uk/ As for re-sale, if you take your time and assess the car carefully now - Look for rust (usual wing bottoms, sills etc) and when the time comes you should be able to resell.
As a rule of thumb, less 20% a CAT C or D car......
The main problem will be is there was major body damage. The galvanised coating on the panels will have become damaged and rust problems start from there onwards. Even a well repaired car like one i used to own will start to show signs of repair eventually. My car was repaired at Spraymaster (Porsche approved bodyshop) and after ten years started to show the areas that had been treated.
The problems that you mentions, slow starting, clock and Sunroof are all low cost repairs. You might be able to fix these yourself using Clarks garage: http://www.clarks-garage.com/. I managed some decent repairs to my fleet of 944s using Clarks garage and i dont know a spanner from a screwdriver.
Lastly, in 1997 a decent 944 S2 in a good colour with the right specification could have been worth between £8k and £4k. I would need more information about the car to confirm a price.
Also, for insurance, no one will care about Cat C write off. . Try RH Specialist insurance: http://www.rhclassicinsurance.co.uk/ As for re-sale, if you take your time and assess the car carefully now - Look for rust (usual wing bottoms, sills etc) and when the time comes you should be able to resell.
As a rule of thumb, less 20% a CAT C or D car......
thanks both for your help so far.
The car has 90000 miles, but doesn't have any history prior to 1997 to verify that (at which point it was on ~40,000 miles). It doesn't have any evidence to show its done more miles than that, so it might be genuine (car was brought as salvage without any documentation) or it could be it was clocked when it was put back on the road.
Regarding rust, I couldn't find any. There is additional metalwork near the trailing edge of one of the wishbones, indicating it had a knock from there at some point, and the bonnet has worn back to its original (red) paint so has been resprayed. With that said, there are no signs of rust at all, and I figure that after 15 years back on the road this would be evident by now?
If the car had full history and no write off, I figure it'd be worth 4-5k, so the money being asked (3k) is reasonable
Hugh
The car has 90000 miles, but doesn't have any history prior to 1997 to verify that (at which point it was on ~40,000 miles). It doesn't have any evidence to show its done more miles than that, so it might be genuine (car was brought as salvage without any documentation) or it could be it was clocked when it was put back on the road.
Regarding rust, I couldn't find any. There is additional metalwork near the trailing edge of one of the wishbones, indicating it had a knock from there at some point, and the bonnet has worn back to its original (red) paint so has been resprayed. With that said, there are no signs of rust at all, and I figure that after 15 years back on the road this would be evident by now?
If the car had full history and no write off, I figure it'd be worth 4-5k, so the money being asked (3k) is reasonable
Hugh
Sounds fair enough - Signs of poor repair would show after 15 years.
A couple of checks if you want to be pedantic:
1) Inspect the inner sills - take the black vents out in the door shuts and look down - perhaps take a picture with a small camera/camera phone.
2) Compression or leakdown - if it can be done.
3) Does it drive straight? Have it 4 wheel aligned to be sure that it is driving straight. The 944 chassis is its tour de force, any mis alignment will mean driving fun reduction.
Of course, the above are assuming that you are able to carry out these tests and that you are as pedantic as me....
Actually, I have often taken chances on damaged 944 turbos and have yet to be stung badly.....
Good luck and let us know how it goes....
ETA: Depending on where you are buying from, i would try to bargain the price south a little.
A couple of checks if you want to be pedantic:
1) Inspect the inner sills - take the black vents out in the door shuts and look down - perhaps take a picture with a small camera/camera phone.
2) Compression or leakdown - if it can be done.
3) Does it drive straight? Have it 4 wheel aligned to be sure that it is driving straight. The 944 chassis is its tour de force, any mis alignment will mean driving fun reduction.
Of course, the above are assuming that you are able to carry out these tests and that you are as pedantic as me....
Actually, I have often taken chances on damaged 944 turbos and have yet to be stung badly.....
Good luck and let us know how it goes....
ETA: Depending on where you are buying from, i would try to bargain the price south a little.
thanks guys
This is the car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1989-PORSCHE-944-S2-9600...
Not sure if anyone knows it - I know it was in Scotland till december when the current owner bought it. the cills are good inside - there is a little surface rust, but its a long way from what you'd call rotten. In addition it's had the clutch and cambelts done recently, which gets all the 'expensive' jobs out of the way. I've been out in it but not driven it yet (didn't have insurance sorted) and it seems to pull well through the gears and steer\stop straight. Obviously a personal drive will show up any issues in a better way. The current owner (who's had loads of 944s) said he checked that when he bought it and found it all was good
This is the car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1989-PORSCHE-944-S2-9600...
Not sure if anyone knows it - I know it was in Scotland till december when the current owner bought it. the cills are good inside - there is a little surface rust, but its a long way from what you'd call rotten. In addition it's had the clutch and cambelts done recently, which gets all the 'expensive' jobs out of the way. I've been out in it but not driven it yet (didn't have insurance sorted) and it seems to pull well through the gears and steer\stop straight. Obviously a personal drive will show up any issues in a better way. The current owner (who's had loads of 944s) said he checked that when he bought it and found it all was good
15 years ago that would have been a £15K-plus car, but still not a huge accident needed to write it off with the cost of approved-bodyshop repairs. £3K isn't overpriced so long as the ad is accurate IMO, the new clutch and work on the brakes is nice. As already said, surface rust is often a sign that the inside of the sills are worse than you'd think. So long as you've had a good look inside and it's not just rust covered with new waxoyl then any sound S2 with good recent history has to be worth that money.
You really can't tell anything from photos like that other than the fact that the dude doesn't own a vacuum cleaner.
Totally ignore the mileage, you have to given the lack of history and there is absolutely no way of telling if it's correct. None whatsoever.
What I would say is the fabric on those seats wasn't the hardest wearing fabric Porsche have ever used so a car that's done a lot of work will show wear on the seat bolsters. There was a grey pinstripe fabrice which wore even quicker but this one shows wear.
Given the car's age no one on here is going to be able to value it for you unseen. The relatively low value versus the cost of any remedial work means that a good car is always going to be worth more than an average one. Its been written off so clearly that has a bearing, I'm not sure you can put it into percentage terms, its probably got to be cheaper than the cheapest one out there (regardless of mileage given the lack of history). That said its a cheap bit of fun to in reality its worth what its worth to you. A service could well come to half the value of these cars so hopefully that puts things into perspective.
Good luck
Henry
Totally ignore the mileage, you have to given the lack of history and there is absolutely no way of telling if it's correct. None whatsoever.
What I would say is the fabric on those seats wasn't the hardest wearing fabric Porsche have ever used so a car that's done a lot of work will show wear on the seat bolsters. There was a grey pinstripe fabrice which wore even quicker but this one shows wear.
Given the car's age no one on here is going to be able to value it for you unseen. The relatively low value versus the cost of any remedial work means that a good car is always going to be worth more than an average one. Its been written off so clearly that has a bearing, I'm not sure you can put it into percentage terms, its probably got to be cheaper than the cheapest one out there (regardless of mileage given the lack of history). That said its a cheap bit of fun to in reality its worth what its worth to you. A service could well come to half the value of these cars so hopefully that puts things into perspective.
Good luck
Henry
another to consider
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OUTSTANDING-ORIGINAL-EXA...
claims to have full history---
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OUTSTANDING-ORIGINAL-EXA...
claims to have full history---
Thanks for the further info. The *cheapest* s2s are only worth £1500 or so but they don't have tax or test. I'd say this is the cheapest with a recent clutch, no rust in the cills, and no major problems? All the classified ads on here or autotrader start around £4-5k for an s2, which I think is simply too much.
That red car is nice, but its an earlier lux not an S2, so it'd be significantly slower (8 to 60 instead of 6.5). I used to have a mx5 which wasn't far off the lux in terms of power to weight and accelleration, so I'd prefer something a bit more nippy this time round.
The drivers seat bolster has a patch on it - so what sort of milage would that indicate? To be honest, I figured the milage is probably around 140k (unlikely to have done more than 100k miles in the first 8 years of its life) - which is still on a par with everything else available for similar money. There's several around with north of 200k miles, but still for sale for more than £2500
That red car is nice, but its an earlier lux not an S2, so it'd be significantly slower (8 to 60 instead of 6.5). I used to have a mx5 which wasn't far off the lux in terms of power to weight and accelleration, so I'd prefer something a bit more nippy this time round.
The drivers seat bolster has a patch on it - so what sort of milage would that indicate? To be honest, I figured the milage is probably around 140k (unlikely to have done more than 100k miles in the first 8 years of its life) - which is still on a par with everything else available for similar money. There's several around with north of 200k miles, but still for sale for more than £2500
Edited by 5lab on Wednesday 29th February 12:21
I can't actually see where in the eBay ad the seller states it's a Cat C? If he's prepared to sell it to casual eBayers without declaring that I'd be worried.
Cat C is different to Cat D, and from memory C implies structural damage, whereas D is likely to be cosmetic only? It means the quality of the rebuild is even more critical.
I've owned two Cat Ds. One (a 205 GTi) I bought unknowingly and proved to be a nightmare. The other (a TVR S3) had been meticulously restored after its bump and proved to be the best car I've owned. It went to the first caller for fifty quid under the asking price, the day I put it on sale.
With a monocoque like the 944 shell, you want to be very careful it's been checked for any distortion. A car with a separate chassis can erupt in a shower of bodywork and still have a solid structure underneath, but that's far less likely to be the case on a moncoque.
Do bear in mind as well you'll get a very nice, straight 944 2.7 for that money...
Cat C is different to Cat D, and from memory C implies structural damage, whereas D is likely to be cosmetic only? It means the quality of the rebuild is even more critical.
I've owned two Cat Ds. One (a 205 GTi) I bought unknowingly and proved to be a nightmare. The other (a TVR S3) had been meticulously restored after its bump and proved to be the best car I've owned. It went to the first caller for fifty quid under the asking price, the day I put it on sale.
With a monocoque like the 944 shell, you want to be very careful it's been checked for any distortion. A car with a separate chassis can erupt in a shower of bodywork and still have a solid structure underneath, but that's far less likely to be the case on a moncoque.
Do bear in mind as well you'll get a very nice, straight 944 2.7 for that money...
Chris71 said:
I can't actually see where in the eBay ad the seller states it's a Cat C? If he's prepared to sell it to casual eBayers without declaring that I'd be worried.
yeah he didn't tell me when I went to see it either - only when I remembered to ask directly later on (to be fair - he said he believed it may have had a cat listing against it, but never checked. I then had it HPI checked and got the info). There's no certian difference between a cat c and d - c's are more serious and should be VIC checked, but the rules to define them differ - I've heard 80% of the trade value will cause a cat d, and 100% or more will cause a cat c - but as has been said, it doesn't take much damage for an OPC to give you an £8k bill - hell you can get that if you ask them to do you a thorough service The fact the damage occured 15 years ago makes me less concerned about the quality of the job - plenty of un-damaged 944 s2s have struggled to make it this far without rusting to bits, so I feel it must have been looked after. I've always had less-than-mint examples of all the cars I've owned and been happy with them, so I think if I can get a bit off the asking price, I'll buy it. If I was going to buy a 2.7 or an 's', I'd probably buy a tatty one of them as well (I guess my inner northener can't cope with spending more than I have to on a given car)
5lab said:
Chris71 said:
I can't actually see where in the eBay ad the seller states it's a Cat C? If he's prepared to sell it to casual eBayers without declaring that I'd be worried.
yeah he didn't tell me when I went to see it either - only when I remembered to ask directly later on (to be fair - he said he believed it may have had a cat listing against it, but never checked. I then had it HPI checked and got the info). There's no certian difference between a cat c and d - c's are more serious and should be VIC checked, but the rules to define them differ - I've heard 80% of the trade value will cause a cat d, and 100% or more will cause a cat c - but as has been said, it doesn't take much damage for an OPC to give you an £8k bill - hell you can get that if you ask them to do you a thorough service The fact the damage occured 15 years ago makes me less concerned about the quality of the job - plenty of un-damaged 944 s2s have struggled to make it this far without rusting to bits, so I feel it must have been looked after. I've always had less-than-mint examples of all the cars I've owned and been happy with them, so I think if I can get a bit off the asking price, I'll buy it. If I was going to buy a 2.7 or an 's', I'd probably buy a tatty one of them as well (I guess my inner northener can't cope with spending more than I have to on a given car)
I still think it's very bad practice not to declare it on the ad, though. Some people (rightly or wrongly) get very worried about Cat C/D cars, so to withhold that information is extremely cheeky in my view.
5lab said:
The *cheapest* s2s are only worth £1500 or so but they don't have tax or test. I'd say this is the cheapest with a recent clutch, no rust in the cills, and no major problems? All the classified ads on here or autotrader start around £4-5k for an s2, which I think is simply too much.
Indeed. Properly restoring the sills can cost a grand a side, clutch another grand, that's the car's price right there. Of course you can do it cheaper, but that's worse case and a car with good sills and a recent clutch has to be worth £1500 more than the cheapest sheds out there?Bolsters do wear, it's dependant on the driver as much as the mileage. Swap the seat backs and it evens the wear out nicely.
My real concern would be the same as the others here; why would you fail to mention such a major issue in the ad? If you think it's genuinely a mistake then fair enough.
pauljmcnulty said:
My real concern would be the same as the others here; why would you fail to mention such a major issue in the ad? If you think it's genuinely a mistake then fair enough.
Chris71 said:
I still think it's very bad practice not to declare it on the ad, though. Some people (rightly or wrongly) get very worried about Cat C/D cars, so to withhold that information is extremely cheeky in my view.
I agree with both of you on that one. It doesn't bode well for the honesty about the rest of the car, but it does appear very straight and clean. I guess its just a way of getting the best price..5lab said:
thanks guys
This is the car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1989-PORSCHE-944-S2-9600...
Not sure if anyone knows it - I know it was in Scotland till december when the current owner bought it.
I'd not spotted this. The owner only bought it in December? Then he's selling it in February without knowing he should list it as previously having a big whack??This is the car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1989-PORSCHE-944-S2-9600...
Not sure if anyone knows it - I know it was in Scotland till december when the current owner bought it.
Something fishy there IMO. What's his reason for selling it so soon? Did he not HPI it himself, if he did he was very aware of the history? Possibly worth a proper inspection to make sure there's not an underlying problem.
Well I gave in and bought it. I saw another near here which was up for the same money and it was a pit - high miles and loads of rust. This one has a few issues - abs and oil level warning lights don't work, and the big ! Came on on its own today. Also I think the alternator or battery might be on their way out as it's only got 13v. The review gauge bounces on hard gear changes as if the balancing weight opposite the needle is gone. Finally, the clutch is slow to return when it's fully depressed, which I think might need a bleed.
No rust at all though, and £2700 seemed a good price
No rust at all though, and £2700 seemed a good price
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