What's the Point?

[Fatman2]

Hi all

I'm interested in the views of supporters from the teams that aren't usually in the top stream i.e. Man U, Man C, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc. and what value you think your team brings to the premiership when winning any form of silverware is a nigh-on impossibility. I don't mean this to be an insult but for a large number of teams, life in the premiership is simply a fight for survival, mediocrity or aspirations of UEFA Cup placement. If the whole thing is about winning tropies then how do you reconcile this situation year after year, knowing that first place is not a viable result?

I say this being a slightly depressed Arsenal fan who is, at this point, ashamed to be an Arsenal fan. Not because we haven't won anything for 7 years but because of the attitudes of a portion of fans around me. Sure Arsenal have a glorious past but no team has a *right* to be winning silverware so am quite philisophical about the whole thing. I guess I'm just from the, "it's not what you do but the way that you do it" camp.

Most teams would kill to be 4th spot, cash rich and playing Champions League football (ok badly and not for much longer) with a manager that delivers some sort of consistency. The face of football has changed so much but I sincerely respect Wenger's and the boards philosophy to stick to their guns and to do things their way. People can slate me for my opinions but good management does not buckle and pander to the ramblings of the masses but is able to stick to their guns. I think this proved to be true on Saturday when it could have gone terribly wrong if Wenger listened to the fans. Sure it can be frustrating but not many of us are football experts (of Wenger's calibre) so are merely armchair managers that would probably take us down the Leeds road of footballing disaster. In this respect I find it sad how people can turn so easily. To me the Wenger situation is like having a great marriage for 15 years, having a bit of a blip and then filing for divorce. To me a true fan rides the storm through thick and thin, shows support in times of need and is there to enjoy the good times (much like a good marriage).

I guess I'm going to answer my own question here but with 15 teams that have almost zero chance of winning the premiership I can still say that I see value in every singe one. I love the fact that teams like Blackburn can whup Man U and David Moyes can consistently deliver and snap at Liverpool's heels, despite the huge disparity in finances. I also like to see teams like Swansea come up from promotion and play some impressive football. Maybe I'm odd but I don't prioritise silverware over everything else and whilst I'd love to see Arsenal win trophies am equally supportive if they don't as the Premiership isn't all about winning trophies. It's about the colour, diversity and insane battles that go on year after year.

That's how it is for me but what do you guys think are the goals of your team if trophies are an impossibility?

Flamesuit on

[alock]

As a teenager I used to support Woking Town (in the Vauxhall Conference at the time). A group of friends and I would go on the train to every home game. We paid a few pounds to stand directly behind the oppositions goal. At half-time all supporters (a few thousand of us) swapped ends so you were always behind the oppositions goal. We didn't win much but it was a fabulous social occasion.

We used to wonder what the point of supporting a big team was when you had to pay at least 10 times as much to get in and would then have to sit where you were told in the ground.

[andyjo1982]

Canary fan here. I guess they've alway been my local team. During primary school, a lot of the kinds in the year or 2 above supported Norwich, the school took us on a tour and also arranged a trip to watch a game on a Saturday. We went to watch Norwich v Everton, we won 4-3 with a Darren Beckford hat-trick iirc... That was back in about 1990/91 maybe... Since then, i've always been a Canary. I do remember (or i'm reminded often) when my dad took me to watch Peterborough a few years prior to that, so I was perhaps 5 maybe, so we're watching Posh and I looked up at my dad with a confused look on my face and said, 'Dad, which teams Norwich?'...

Whats the point of Norwich? Well, I guess its a focal point for the community. Its something for youngsters to aim for. A place to go and watch a good standard of football in a friendly atmosphere, at a club thats run the right way. Sure, we'll probably never win the league, and we know we'll always be the underdogs against the big clubs, but on those days when the underdog triumphs, life is sweeeet.

Football would be VERY boring if there were only 5 professional teams in England. Sundays cup final was also a great game for the underdog...

Stick with Arsenal, i'm sure they will win something, eventually

[oxford drinker]

You only need to win 6 games to win the FA Cup, so all PL teams have a realistic chance of silverware, even if the PL title or Eurpoean places are out of reach. Having watched my team (WBA) play at Hartlepool, Grimsby, Bury and Stockport (to name but a few), much as I enjoyed those away days, I wouldn't want to go back to that now that I've got a taste for Premier League football. True, we have zero chance of winning the title, but a properly run club can build season upon season, and that has to be the aim of a club such as WBA. Once you have consolidated your PL place, you're able to afford better players, and attract a better quality of player, which from a spectators point of view can only be a good thing. We have had a £6m striker on the bench the past two games, unthinkable even a couple of years ago.

The aim of my club is to equal or better our 11th place of last year, and to improve the quality and depth of the squad. One year, with a bit of luck, we might even have a cup run. Our yardstick of what constitutes success is very different from that of Manchester Utd/City, where trophies are the currency they will be judged by.

[Mr Tumble]

If your ashamed of your club are your really a true supporter of that club?

My take on the supporters of clubs you describe? Well they are just that, supporting their teams through thick and thin regardless. Lower table teams do struggle but just being in the prem to stay another season, to finish a few places higher next season get a few more quid in to bring in better players, create a more competetive squad to challenge the big 4.. or 5 or 6 as it may be..

I am LFC, born and bread in Liverpool so thats "my" team, gone through hard times of late but I if I was from a championship side area that would be where my support would be.

As mentioned it would be pretty boring if all teams where the same.. I guess its the love of the game, I have a friend, a life long Leeds supporter, for all the trouble they went through, demotion, deductions and administration failing to get promoted he still loves his team and watches them week in week out enjoying the games as they come.. Not saying fans of smaller clubs should not aspire but it's all part of the fun..

Take the carling cup final last Sunday, should Cardiff fans be pissed off becuase they lost? I thought they were bloody great, shows what small teams can do with the support of their fans behind them, look at spurs!

[Ganglandboss]

Why are you not interested in the views of Manchester City fans? I can still remember when we were st!

[Promised Land]

Fatman2 said:

Hi all

I say this being a slightly depressed Arsenal fan who is, at this point, ashamed to be an Arsenal fan. Not because we haven't won anything for 7 years but because of the attitudes of a portion of fans around me.

I'm sorry I couldn't read on after this part, you say it's the fans around you. Well next time tell them to just look at the dates/trophies right around your ground and thank themselves lucky they have so many in their history.

Most clubs/fans/players/owners would give their right arm just for one major trophy in their history.

It isn't all about that though it's the passion about your home club (if you live near arsenal mind;) ) and match days in a whole not just 90 minutes on the pitch. When Saturday comes around it is the whole day for me win,lose or draw.

[Justin Cyder]

Three of my family have been on the books at Spurs. One plays for the academy now, so they're our side. Always were, always will be. I was a Spurs fan when we were bottom of the league & I am now we're flying high. For me, it's an allegiance, maybe even a bit of tribalism, once a yid, always a yid etc etc.

But for me, something chimes in that first post. Football has always had sugar daddy chairmen, buying their way to glory, the trick is sustaining it over generations. Teams like LFC & Man U can always draw on massive support & that translates into revenue & then into power, but even there, the wheel turns sooner or later.

What's killing it for me is the Sky money. If you look across the leagues in the last twenty years for clubs in administration, you get:

said:

Northampton 1992
Kettering 1992
Aldershot 1992
Maidstone 1992
Hartlepool 1994
Barnet 1994
Exeter 1994, 2003
Gillingham 1995
Doncaster 1997
Millwall 1997
Bournemouth 1997, 2008
Darlington 1997, 2009
Chester 1998, 2009
Hereford 1998
Portsmouth 1999, 2010
Crystal Palace 1999, 2010
Oxford Utd 1999
Barrow 1999
Swindon 2000, 2002
Scarborough 2000
Hull 2001
QPR 2001
Chesterfield 2001
Leicester 2002
Barnsley 2002
Carlisle 2002
Notts County 2002
Bury 2002
Bradford 2002
Port Vale 2002
Lincoln City 2002
Swansea City 2002
York 2002
Halifax Town 2002, 2008
Derby 2003
Ipswich 2003
Huddersfield 2003
Oldham 2003
MK Dons 2003
Wimbledon 2003
Wrexham 2004
Cambridge 2005
Crawley Town 2006
Rotherham 2006, 2008
Leeds United 2007
Boston United 2007
Southampton 2008
Luton 2008
Stockport 2009
Salisbury 2009

A lot of those are lower leagues, but can trace their decline to higher positions in the leagues. If you contrast it with post war stats it's a very different picture. The money in the game has led directly to greed, dodgy owners, clubs being sold down the river & an increase in the pace of clubs running into difficulties. Now we have a scenario where a half a dozen or so stellar clubs drive tv rights round the world & frankly, all the others are making up the numbers in both a financial & sporting sense. I deplore the day Sky got involved. Murdoch did it purely to drive subscriptions to his business - it was never about the good of the game for itself & in doing so, he unleashed a torrent of unforeseen circumstances that are now coming home to roost.

[TJA]

Fatman2 - nice to hear a fellow Gooner speak some sane words.

[Fatman2]

Mr Tumble said:

If your ashamed of your club are your really a true supporter of that club?

My take on the supporters of clubs you describe? Well they are just that, supporting their teams through thick and thin regardless. Lower table teams do struggle but just being in the prem to stay another season, to finish a few places higher next season get a few more quid in to bring in better players, create a more competetive squad to challenge the big 4.. or 5 or 6 as it may be..

I am LFC, born and bread in Liverpool so thats "my" team, gone through hard times of late but I if I was from a championship side area that would be where my support would be.

As mentioned it would be pretty boring if all teams where the same.. I guess its the love of the game, I have a friend, a life long Leeds supporter, for all the trouble they went through, demotion, deductions and administration failing to get promoted he still loves his team and watches them week in week out enjoying the games as they come.. Not saying fans of smaller clubs should not aspire but it's all part of the fun..

Take the carling cup final last Sunday, should Cardiff fans be pissed off becuase they lost? I thought they were bloody great, shows what small teams can do with the support of their fans behind them, look at spurs!

You get me wrong, I'm not ashamed of the club at all, just some of our own fans hurling horrific abuse at Wenger and players like Walcott. I don't think any of us would stand going to work and being told us that we were rubbish at our jobs every day (except with more expletives LOL), yet because people pay £50+ for a ticket it suddenly gives people the right. I don't dispute that these fans aren't trying to support the team but calling for the sacking of a man because of a lack of silverware is very sad indeed.

Congrats on winning the cup though. Must be great to be on the up again although I’m surprised you can still type as I’d have no finger nails/fingers left after than one

Promised Land said:

I'm sorry I couldn't read on after this part, you say it's the fans around you. Well next time tell them to just look at the dates/trophies right around your ground and thank themselves lucky they have so many in their history.

Most clubs/fans/players/owners would give their right arm just for one major trophy in their history.

It isn't all about that though it's the passion about your home club (if you live near arsenal mind;) ) and match days in a whole not just 90 minutes on the pitch. When Saturday comes around it is the whole day for me win,lose or draw. [quote]

Sorry, I couldn’t work out whether you were agreeing/disagreeing LOL but I think this is what I’ve been talking about. Arsenal have had a brilliant run thanks to Wenger and whilst I’d love some more silverware it’s not the ‘be all’ for me. As some of the guys have mentioned, it’s about their clubs doing things the ‘right’ way and seeing real, rewarding progress year after year. That’s what football means to me. I don’t see it as a quick fix, band-aid to win one year and drop off the next but a long term commitment to true progression. Ok so it’s gone slightly wrong for Arsenal of late but not many people (perhaps with the exception of Furguson) can achieve such heady heights of management supremacy.

[Booey]

I understand and agree with some of what you are saying...

Football does bring strong opinions though and most people want their team to be winning.

[andyjo1982]

[quote=Fatman2]

You get me wrong, I'm not ashamed of the club at all, just some of our own fans hurling horrific abuse at Wenger and players like Walcott. I don't think any of us would stand going to work and being told us that we were rubbish at our jobs every day (except with more expletives LOL), yet because people pay £50+ for a ticket it suddenly gives people the right. I don't dispute that these fans aren't trying to support the team but calling for the sacking of a man because of a lack of silverware is very sad indeed.

[quote]

But doesn't paying £50 or whatever give you the right to express your opinions? I don't always agree with whats said, or sometimes the way its said, but it is part of the game. You're right when you say that people wouldn't take being told they're rubbish at there jobs. I work in a sales industry and have daily as well as monthly targets. I don't have people that criticise me for 1 days poor work, the same as I don't have people who shout from the roof tops when I have a great days work. However, if my performance stayed at a low level, i'd get warnings, then sacked. When was the last time a footballer was sacked for poor performance? You have to remember that some of the public invest thousands into their club through tickets and merchandise etc, so, from my own POV, I think its more than fair to question the people who are spending the clubs money...

[MrMagoo]

OP are you me?

I'm also an arsenal fan and my thoughts echo yours. 7 years without a trophy? Ask one of the teams in the relegation battle to see if they'd swap positions.

Footballs a funny game, 2-0 down at the weekend and the players and manager were getting some stick. By the end of the game everyone was singing 'there's only one Arsne Wenger' made me chuckle.

[The jiffle king]

1 FA cup (1976)
1 2nd place in the old first division
1 J paint trophy
League cup runners up/FA cup runners up

Ashamed? no way, but reality is that we will not win titles if a massive cash injection does not come our way. Gone are the days of the game, it´s now a business and we hope to improve like any other business. I love the club, but do I ever see my team winning the Premiership? Sadly not, but I can dream that one year, we will win the FA cup, might sneak into Europe again and might not sell the best young players in the game (Oxlade Chamberlin, Walcott, Bale, Bridge) It´s still good to be a Saints fan, possibly more interesting since we got relegated to League 1 and have fought our way back. I just have different expectations to the "big clubs" fans. I do secretly laugh when I hear Liverpool/Chelsea/Arsenal fans talk about being 2nd next season and how they "deserve" to be there becuase they are a big club. My expectations have been managed since I became a fan and as Jasper Carrot once said about Birmingham " You lose some, you draw some"

[Promised Land]

Fatman2 said:

Sorry, I couldn’t work out whether you were agreeing/disagreeing LOL but I think this is what I’ve been talking about. Arsenal have had a brilliant run thanks to Wenger and whilst I’d love some more silverware it’s not the ‘be all’ for me. As some of the guys have mentioned, it’s about their clubs doing things the ‘right’ way and seeing real, rewarding progress year after year. That’s what football means to me. I don’t see it as a quick fix, band-aid to win one year and drop off the next but a long term commitment to true progression. Ok so it’s gone slightly wrong for Arsenal of late but not many people (perhaps with the exception of Furguson) can achieve such heady heights of management supremacy.

Agreeing with you about the fans around you that are moaning as you have no silverware of present.

But and this is a big but, clubs the size of Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea expect to win something every year, but as we all know not all the big clubs can win something every year and like Liverpool you have had a bit of a drought.

What is the biggest spell the club has gone without a trophy? This surely can't be the longest.

Still you always have the Emirates cup or did the Red Bulls win it?

ETA. After your game on Sunday I thought every gunners fan would be jumping about like they'd won the Champs league.

[Fatman2]

andyjo1982 said:

But doesn't paying £50 or whatever give you the right to express your opinions? I don't always agree with whats said, or sometimes the way its said, but it is part of the game. You're right when you say that people wouldn't take being told they're rubbish at there jobs. I work in a sales industry and have daily as well as monthly targets. I don't have people that criticise me for 1 days poor work, the same as I don't have people who shout from the roof tops when I have a great days work. However, if my performance stayed at a low level, i'd get warnings, then sacked. When was the last time a footballer was sacked for poor performance? You have to remember that some of the public invest thousands into their club through tickets and merchandise etc, so, from my own POV, I think its more than fair to question the people who are spending the clubs money...

You raise some decent points there and I think in reality the clubs expect feedback as they seem to value it (or at least say so during post match interviews LOL). Of course opinions are perfectly valid but am just concerned with the really nasty stuff degrading stuff that gets spouted.

But football seems to be one of those unique sports where the fans seem to have so much influence. In fact I'm not sure of many sports where you can pay regular money and then feel like you can verbally abuse or attempt to have a coach sacked. It really is an intriguing one but then football is probably one of the most passionate spectator sports out there.

Edited by Fatman2 on Wednesday 29th February 18:25

[Fatman2]

Justin Cyder said:

A lot of those are lower leagues, but can trace their decline to higher positions in the leagues. If you contrast it with post war stats it's a very different picture. The money in the game has led directly to greed, dodgy owners, clubs being sold down the river & an increase in the pace of clubs running into difficulties. Now we have a scenario where a half a dozen or so stellar clubs drive tv rights round the world & frankly, all the others are making up the numbers in both a financial & sporting sense. I deplore the day Sky got involved. Murdoch did it purely to drive subscriptions to his business - it was never about the good of the game for itself & in doing so, he unleashed a torrent of unforeseen circumstances that are now coming home to roost.

I too hate the money that has turned football on its head but it seems to be 'the way' nowadays. I think there is a compromise somewhere and think Spurs may have it about right, whereas Arsenal could do with loosening up a tad. Harry has spent a bit and it's paid off. Being a decent manager he has got you in some very good positions over the past few years.

I realise there is a lot of rivalry (hence I generally stay away from the two forums) but I was genuinely pleased to see Spurs playing Real Madrid a while back and for one minute thought it could have been the shock of the tournament. My only worry for you guys is Harry's history and that he has a tendency to drop things very easily (like his boomerang Pompey-Southampton-Pompey spell). Otherwise I think he's a great manager and providing he doesn't bugger off to manage England will undoubtedly continue a new era for you guys.

But the constant drive for improvement at the top is a slippery slope and despite Arsenal announcing a £49.5m profit could very easily lose that on a few star players. Maybe if he could just spend a tiny bit though

One of the most interesting articles I've read recently was an analysis of Chelsea's biggest flops and saw a chart of top money players that cost a fortune but did not deliver. Players like Torres, Shevchenko, Mutu, Crespo and Veron. Fortunately they've a pot of gold but this kind of money just isn't possible for 18 of the 20 clubs so is a ridiculous situation.

[dmulally]

Must have been a hard seven years for you OP. If you really want to be tired of living, how about following Stockport County?

The first post in the below sums up the team and the second post sums up the rest of the worlds thoughts on The Hatters.

http://www.redcafe.net/f7/stockport-relegated-foot...

Hoping to get over there this year to watch what passes for a game.

[Le Pop]

Success is relative. For you 'top 5' guys winning the prem is what counts. I'm a Palace fan, and for us the career highlight was beating Liverpool in an FA Cup semi many years ago. I still get misty eyed even thinking about it. Or beating Brighton on their new ground earlier this season. Or beating Millwall anytime. Who knows, occasionally you get to play one of the real big teams and do something good.

I get a bit cross when my gooner friends moan because they haven't won anything, but they aren't on the brink financially, they get european footy regularly and they may even win the prem. But that is relative too.