France or Germany

[pistonpie]

In your experience, which is a better place for driving overall? France or Germany? Curious to hear what people say...although i'd expect the majority to say Germany

[crocodile tears]

Germany.. It seems the french are really cracking down on people who speed.

[dcb]

pistonpie said:

In your experience, which is a better place for driving overall? France or Germany? Curious to hear what people say...although i'd expect the majority to say Germany

Both are IMHO better than the UK, but Germany by a country mile.

As Mrs Merkel has made plain, they are a nation of keen drivers,
more so than anywhere else in Europe.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that if someone does
some stupid driving in front of you in Germany, then
you can be pretty certain a foreigner is driving, but
certainly the average driving standard is far superior
to almost all other places in Europe.

Which goes some way to explain the low car insurance rates in Germany.

[heebeegeetee]

I've done 3 solo week-long driving holidays in France during Spring time in recent years, concentrating on the Massif and Alps, and can say that they are big areas with almost totally deserted god-given roads, no police, staggering scenery, fabulous mountains, great fun when encountering the remnants of the winter weather, great food and so on.

You can drive for hours on end and hardly see a soul, on what must be some of the best roads in the world. Following Monte Carlo Rally routes can be great fun.

I noticed that as soon as I ventured away from these areas I hit traffic.

[Puggit]

The French have recently banned GPS devices giving speed camera locations

[MC Bodge]

dcb said:

Both are IMHO better than the UK, but Germany by a country mile.

As Mrs Merkel has made plain, they are a nation of keen drivers,
more so than anywhere else in Europe.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that if someone does
some stupid driving in front of you in Germany, then
you can be pretty certain a foreigner is driving

-Probably a Belgian...
From my experience of France, Belgium and Germany. It is always Belgians doing extreme tail-gating and lane-changing, especially in Belgium

dcb said:

certainly the average driving standard is far superior
to almost all other places in Europe.

I'd agree that Germany is probably the best country I have driven in (never been to Scandinavia), France is good outside of cities, although the mostly empty roads of Canada weren't bad either.

[dom180]

heebeegeetee said:

I've done 3 solo week-long driving holidays in France during Spring time in recent years, concentrating on the Massif and Alps, and can say that they are big areas with almost totally deserted god-given roads, no police, staggering scenery, fabulous mountains, great fun when encountering the remnants of the winter weather, great food and so on.

You can drive for hours on end and hardly see a soul, on what must be some of the best roads in the world. Following Monte Carlo Rally routes can be great fun.

I noticed that as soon as I ventured away from these areas I hit traffic.

Agree. Germany has some great roads (Black Forest and the Mountains/German Alps and some twisty unlimited stretches of Autobahn) but there's vast areas of France including the Massif, Vosges, and the Alps/Alp Maritime that are simply brilliant. Then there's the French side of the Pyrenees and many deserted b-type roads all over the place if you know where to look....

It terms of quality, quantity and lack of other road users, France has it licked by a fair margin imho.

[pistonpie]

dcb said:

Both are IMHO better than the UK

agree with this...cross the tunnel and you notice the difference in the quality of the French roads vs the UK ones within a minute of leaving!

[Diamond blue]

Puggit said:

The French have recently banned GPS devices giving speed camera locations

Yes but as the owner of a UK registered car you do not have to worry about their fixed site cameras anyway.
Turn off the speed camera alerts to stay legal by all means but the mobile speed traps are the danger.

Re France Germany debate.

Extensively driven in both in recent years and I would still say France is better.
French road surfaces are fantastic, the mountain areas are more extensive, less crowded and the country is chock full of wonderful restaurants to have a break at. Its also a lot warmer in the south on the whole than even southern Germany.
Autobahns have some unlimited sections (increasingly less you'll find) but be very careful to notice when the limit is back in force as they are hot on that.
But the big problem in Germany is that its motorway network is crowded, congested and constantly has long, long roadwork sections. And if that sounds like the UK that's because it is. The surfaces are often poor, with trucks wearing channels into the inside carriageway.
Get into the black forest or Eifel forest and its great though.

you have to pay in France but you get what you pay for. Smooth, uncrowded and fast long distance roads.

[MC Bodge]

To qualify what I said above: The standard of driving and general organisation in Germany is the best I've experienced. The Autobahn do have a lot of roadworks, though, and the changing speed limits can be a bit annoying, albeit in mostly understandable places -The unrestricted sections feel very liberating to a Brit. You can cover a lot of ground in Germany.
The Schwarzwald is fantastic.

France has a lot of great, quiet Alpine and rural roads and the standard of driving is surprisingly good on the Autoroute ...other than those Belgians.

[Diamond blue]

MC Bodge said:

To qualify what I said above: The standard of driving and general organisation in Germany is the best I've experienced. The Autobahn do have a lot of roadworks, though, and the changing speed limits can be a bit annoying, albeit in mostly understandable places -The unrestricted sections feel very liberating to a Brit. You can cover a lot of ground in Germany.
The Schwarzwald is fantastic.

France has a lot of great, quiet Alpine and rural roads and the standard of driving is surprisingly good on the Autoroute ...other than those Belgians.

I have to say off the beaten track , Germany has wonderful equivalents to our b roads and better surfaced. I agree the standard of driving in Germany is high although we as a nation are really not that bad. French autoroutes are easy to drive well on as there is just no crowding, lots of space.

But, the feeling of going very very fast entirely legally in Germany is slightly weird in a good way for a brit. It feels a bit "dirty" like you're doing something naughty and the rush is addictive. Gets the adrenalin pumping.
Soon brought back to earth when you hit Belgium though. THE worst surfaced motorways in western europe and some of the very worst driving too.

[MC Bodge]

Diamond blue said:

I have to say off the beaten track , Germany has wonderful equivalents to our b roads and better surfaced.

Definitely.

Diamond blue said:

I agree the standard of driving in Germany is high although we as a nation are really not that bad.

We're not, although our mis-placed 'queueing' culture, self-righteousness, constant mobile phone use and poor lane discipline spoil it things to a degree.

Diamond blue said:

the feeling of going very very fast entirely legally in Germany is slightly weird in a good way for a brit. It feels a bit "dirty" like you're doing something naughty and the rush is addictive. Gets the adrenalin pumping.

I found the opposite. Going flat-out, covering lots of ground, in my (admittedly modest) car without needing to look out for coppers gives me an enormous sense of freedom -I'd like to take my bike over there.

I would imagine that travelling flat-out in a much faster car in the UK would be more adrenaline-pumping because it genuinely is considered naughty in our land.

Diamond blue said:

Soon brought back to earth when you hit Belgium though. THE worst surfaced motorways in western europe and some of the very worst driving too.

Too right. I was genuinely shocked by the transition.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 2nd March 14:03

[dcb]

Diamond blue said:

Autobahns have some unlimited sections (increasingly less you'll find) but be very careful to notice when the limit is back in force as they are hot on that.

To be fair, the Germans have about 3.5 times as much autobahn
as the UK has motorways (12,000 km versus 3,400 km).

Ok Germany is a lot bigger, but pound for pound, they still have more.

Much more detail on http://www.abd.org.uk/green_and_pleasant_land.htm

The German AA, the ADAC, reckon about 70% of it is unlimited.
New unlimited gets built all the time, so it is not clear to me
where the idea that the unlimited autobahn is getting smaller
comes from.

The German definition of serious autobahn speeding is IIRC 70 kmh over
the limit, so in a 130 kmh section, that's 200kmh. Expect serious
bother - courts, coppers and confiscation.

In practice, they don't seem to bother issuing any tickets for anything
within 30 kmh of an autobahn limit, unless it's in roadworks
and providing you are driving otherwise sensibly.

There is a grey area between about 30 kmh over and 70 kmh over.

They can and do ticket for tailgating and bad lane discipline far
more than the Brits, who seem solely interested in only speeding.

In my 20+ years experience of driving there, the autobahn system is,
like most things German, serious, well organised and a text book
example of how to do it right.

[stefan740]

Germany has the better road surface but i might have to say the french do everything else at least as good...

[Diamond blue]

dcb said:

To be fair, the Germans have about 3.5 times as much autobahn
as the UK has motorways (12,000 km versus 3,400 km).

Ok Germany is a lot bigger, but pound for pound, they still have more.

Much more detail on http://www.abd.org.uk/green_and_pleasant_land.htm

The German AA, the ADAC, reckon about 70% of it is unlimited.
New unlimited gets built all the time, so it is not clear to me
where the idea that the unlimited autobahn is getting smaller
comes from.

The German definition of serious autobahn speeding is IIRC 70 kmh over
the limit, so in a 130 kmh section, that's 200kmh. Expect serious
bother - courts, coppers and confiscation.

In practice, they don't seem to bother issuing any tickets for anything
within 30 kmh of an autobahn limit, unless it's in roadworks
and providing you are driving otherwise sensibly.

There is a grey area between about 30 kmh over and 70 kmh over.

They can and do ticket for tailgating and bad lane discipline far
more than the Brits, who seem solely interested in only speeding.

In my 20+ years experience of driving there, the autobahn system is,
like most things German, serious, well organised and a text book
example of how to do it right.

I agree in the main with this but in the last 2 years it has been a real trial getting across the country. It's a far more populous country than France and near urban areas it's as busy as any british equivalent.
Around Paris where it can honestly make the m25 look good it's crowded, elsewhere it's empty. The surfaces are perfect but it costs.
But France is blessed with fabulous scenery and climate and that's a clincher for me

[silverthorn2151]

France. Just better.

My Tom-Tom update has removed all the speed camera info from the device. Not a big problem really as you can make very swift progress without going bonkers.

As soon as I hit Calais heading anywhere in France the holiday begins.

[Davey S2]

silverthorn2151 said:

France. Just better.

+1 although I have driven a lot more in France compared to Germany.

The unrestricted parts of the autobahn are very liberating though. Cruising at 120+ and winding it up to 170 on the long straights in my old Cayman S was a very strange but great feeling.

[Diamond blue]

Davey S2 said:

Cruising at 120+ and winding it up to 170 on the long straights in my old Cayman S was a very strange but great feeling.

That sums it up for me. There's a certain guilty feeling you just can't quite get over at doing an indicated 170+ without the fear of the long arm of the law.

[andy1300gt]

FRANCE _ Area : 674,843 km2 - 260,558 sq mi - Population 65,350,000
GERMANY_ Area : 357,021 km2 - 137,847 sq mi - Population 82,329,758
UK_ Area : 245,000 km2 - 94,600 sq mi - Population 58,789,194
Based on the facts you would say France. Spanish mountains are good. Ireland has some mad roads. Its all about finding what you need.

[NickVyse]

andy1300gt said:

FRANCE _ Area : 674,843 km2 - 260,558 sq mi - Population 65,350,000
GERMANY_ Area : 357,021 km2 - 137,847 sq mi - Population 82,329,758
UK_ Area : 245,000 km2 - 94,600 sq mi - Population 58,789,194
Based on the facts you would say France. Spanish mountains are good. Ireland has some mad roads. Its all about finding what you need.

France also has more miles or tarmac road than any other country in the World - top fact! Coupled with the low population density, the quality of their road maintenance and you have some amazing drives away from the busy centres, completely devoid of gendarmes and speed cameras. Everyone raves about the Route Napoleon, and for very good reason, but all the roads off this popular route are just as stunning but much, much quieter, and barely ever policed. For quality of roads, views and weather it's hard to beat a few days in the South-East corner of France. The dept of Haute Provence is the least populated of all France and it's just one back from the Cote d'Azur, Monaco and all the history of driving and rallying down here.

But I'm biased - I live here (out of choice, London speed bumps/cameras/northern line drove me out!)

Cheers, Nick

---

m2bmw • le foulon, provence, france. enjoy a driving holiday on europe's best roads

Edited by NickVyse on Monday 16th April 16:01