A question to PH Driving Instructors/Newly Qualifed Drivers
Discussion
I have just started to let my learner son drive my car under my supervision so he can get some much needed practice.
I'm very concious not to try to 'teach' him but just to let him practice what he has been taught in his lessons by his instructor so he doesn't pick up my many bad habits.
However, there is one thing that he is doing which he assures me he has been taught to do, but which seems very odd and is new to me and just doesn't feel right. When pulling off from rest he is completely releasing the clutch before applying any power, the two processes (clutch release and applying the accelerator) seem effectively separate rather than 'blended' as I'm sure I was taught to do, feeding the power in when you feel the biting point.
Doing this is clearly causing him to stall far more that I would have expected as my car bogs down badly when this technique is used. Maybe he lacks fine control but as his clutch control seems pretty decent the rest of the time I'm not so certain.
Is this a new technique being taught these days, have I been doing it wrong for the last 28 years and its always been taught like that, or has he got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the way?
Any ideas from Instuctors or people who have passed recently would be much appreciated
I'm very concious not to try to 'teach' him but just to let him practice what he has been taught in his lessons by his instructor so he doesn't pick up my many bad habits.
However, there is one thing that he is doing which he assures me he has been taught to do, but which seems very odd and is new to me and just doesn't feel right. When pulling off from rest he is completely releasing the clutch before applying any power, the two processes (clutch release and applying the accelerator) seem effectively separate rather than 'blended' as I'm sure I was taught to do, feeding the power in when you feel the biting point.
Doing this is clearly causing him to stall far more that I would have expected as my car bogs down badly when this technique is used. Maybe he lacks fine control but as his clutch control seems pretty decent the rest of the time I'm not so certain.
Is this a new technique being taught these days, have I been doing it wrong for the last 28 years and its always been taught like that, or has he got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the way?
Any ideas from Instuctors or people who have passed recently would be much appreciated
I passed my test 7 years ago, not exactly recent, but certainly more recently than you did!
I never learnt to do this, instead learning to balance the clutch and the accelerator as you mention. I can easily see why releasing the clutch completely before applying any power would cause frequent stalling.
Also, when I was learning I did a lot of practice between lessons with both of my parents and they were very conscious not to "teach" me anything, but simply let me drive how I had been taught. I think unfortunately these days a lot of the lessons are about learning how to pass the test, rather than drive normally.
Tom
I never learnt to do this, instead learning to balance the clutch and the accelerator as you mention. I can easily see why releasing the clutch completely before applying any power would cause frequent stalling.
Also, when I was learning I did a lot of practice between lessons with both of my parents and they were very conscious not to "teach" me anything, but simply let me drive how I had been taught. I think unfortunately these days a lot of the lessons are about learning how to pass the test, rather than drive normally.
Tom
My son was taught to find the "bite point".
This entailed him sitting stationary, letting the clutch out (usually with brakes / handbrake applied) and then attempting to accelerate away.
He bought himself a Clio, and complained of a burning smell, which was attributed to the clutch.
It took almost a year for him to break this habit.
He was AA trained.
This entailed him sitting stationary, letting the clutch out (usually with brakes / handbrake applied) and then attempting to accelerate away.
He bought himself a Clio, and complained of a burning smell, which was attributed to the clutch.
It took almost a year for him to break this habit.
He was AA trained.
Thanks for the swift responses. I'm glad to hear it's not just me!
The petrol/diesel point is a good one. His instructors car is diesel and I believe they are rather harder to stall and more prepared to lug along on idle than a petrol which is what I drive.
Looks like I'm going to have to help him adapt his style a little for the petrol and then leave well alone again.
The petrol/diesel point is a good one. His instructors car is diesel and I believe they are rather harder to stall and more prepared to lug along on idle than a petrol which is what I drive.
Looks like I'm going to have to help him adapt his style a little for the petrol and then leave well alone again.
It should be blended for a smooth pull away. I can't think why he would be being taught this, even in a diesel where the engine is a bit lazier and you can get away with being a bit sloppy on the pedals. Most driving instructors have the dual controls and will often balance the clutch at the biting point themselves when teaching a new learner or when doing hill starts with a learner driver who is not familiar with him.
Part of teaching your son should be about you imparting knowledge to him as best you can. It can be very difficult to teach your kids as you expect them to be able to pick things up as easily as you, where as a driving instructor should be familiar with different styles of learning and appreciating that some people learn faster than others.
I would certainly address this issue, as dumping the clutch and trying to feed power on like that seems bad for the car and bad for the drive.
Part of teaching your son should be about you imparting knowledge to him as best you can. It can be very difficult to teach your kids as you expect them to be able to pick things up as easily as you, where as a driving instructor should be familiar with different styles of learning and appreciating that some people learn faster than others.
I would certainly address this issue, as dumping the clutch and trying to feed power on like that seems bad for the car and bad for the drive.
Diesel accelerator pedals are much less smooth for controlling the vehicle at slow speeds as the anti-stall of a diesel is basically like booting the accelerator pedal, so it's easier to drive those at low speed using clutch slip mainly until you're going fast enough to release the clutch completely, before using the accelerator (doesn't mean you should, just that it is easier and more comfortable usually).
Petrols won't do that for you, so doing the same thing in a petrol leaves you liable to stalling at first. Of course if you have a Zonda C12 you are probably ok on idle torque anyway to get all the way up the gears, and with experience you can putter around with just the clutch pedal anyway, but when I was a learner and a very green driver (about 35-40k miles and 2 years ago) I know I wasn't able to do it...
Petrols won't do that for you, so doing the same thing in a petrol leaves you liable to stalling at first. Of course if you have a Zonda C12 you are probably ok on idle torque anyway to get all the way up the gears, and with experience you can putter around with just the clutch pedal anyway, but when I was a learner and a very green driver (about 35-40k miles and 2 years ago) I know I wasn't able to do it...
I suspect your son has got the wrong end of the stick, it happens! However, best thing is for you to speak to his instructor. When I taught learners I encouraged parents to discuss anything they wanted to know about their child's progress. I can't think why any instructor would think differently.
Should the instructor insist that this technique is correct do please let us know their reasoning, sounds strange to me.
Should the instructor insist that this technique is correct do please let us know their reasoning, sounds strange to me.
Is it possible the instructor's car has a knackered clutch? I remember my instructor's Micra had a clutch that was on the way out. The pedal needed raised almost totally before the car would take off. It's probably not that, but something to think about.
If he's really unwilling to break the habit, might I suggest taking him to a relatively steep hill on an empty road late at night, and asking him how well the technique works?
If he's really unwilling to break the habit, might I suggest taking him to a relatively steep hill on an empty road late at night, and asking him how well the technique works?
If I remember correctly that's a way of teaching it - at the beginning at least. It saves having to move two feet at the same time which is difficult at the start. Depending on how many lessons he's had he might not have got round to introducing the accelerator at the same time.
Might be worth phoning his instructor to find out though.
Might be worth phoning his instructor to find out though.
davepoth said:
If I remember correctly that's a way of teaching it - at the beginning at least. It saves having to move two feet at the same time which is difficult at the start. Depending on how many lessons he's had he might not have got round to introducing the accelerator at the same time.
Could be if the pupil is struggling (though certainly not the way I learned it). Though if he's struggling that much surely you'd have noticed, and wouldn't be taking him out yourself in a car with only one set of controls?I'd have thought that constantly stalling a car when trying to pull away would have been worse for a learner driver than having to learn to balance the clutch and the throttle. How would the instructor tackle a hill start?
I passed my test four months ago in a Diesel Corsa D, and was also taught to find the biting point, get moving JUST on the clutch and then start to make progress. Stupid, stupid idea, I always used to feed in a bit of power as well as I knew a petrol car wouldn't be able to do that and it's also just a silly idea in the first place. Holding/riding on the biting point whilst stationary (waiting at the lights or at a junction) is another bad habit that is taught nowerdays, I really don't understand how anyone with even an ounce of mechanical sympathy can do that.
Dunelm Alumnus said:
I have just started to let my learner son drive my car under my supervision so he can get some much needed practice.
I'm very concious not to try to 'teach' him but just to let him practice what he has been taught in his lessons by his instructor so he doesn't pick up my many bad habits.
BIG ADVICEI'm very concious not to try to 'teach' him but just to let him practice what he has been taught in his lessons by his instructor so he doesn't pick up my many bad habits.
It is worth paying his instructor for 30 mins of their time so they can advise you on what is required - best half a lesson fee anyone can spend
Gooly said:
I passed my test four months ago in a Diesel Corsa D, and was also taught to find the biting point, get moving JUST on the clutch and then start to make progress. Stupid, stupid idea, I always used to feed in a bit of power as well as I knew a petrol car wouldn't be able to do that and it's also just a silly idea in the first place. Holding/riding on the biting point whilst stationary (waiting at the lights or at a junction) is another bad habit that is taught nowerdays, I really don't understand how anyone with even an ounce of mechanical sympathy can do that.
Holding on the clutch wasn't taught to me, back in 2010, nor in 2002. I was taught to (perhaps over) use the hand brake.I was also taught to balance the clutch and accelerator.
Gooly said:
Holding/riding on the biting point whilst stationary (waiting at the lights or at a junction) is another bad habit that is taught nowerdays, I really don't understand how anyone with even an ounce of mechanical sympathy can do that.
It's taught because it's easier for most new drivers than pulling away properly as all you have to do is release the handbrake and squeeze the throttle gently and you're away. I have always preferred the stop-neutral-select gear-go method I was taught. When I did my last driving course for work you couldn't pass unless you followed that routine for stopping.
I'm going to guess the instructor is concerned that teaching throttle blending too soon will result in a few botched high rpm clutch dumps which by his reasoning are worse than many bite point starts.
Seems very conservative and risk averse way of instruction to me.
Otherwise maybe your son has the wrong end of the stick and is passing it off as the instructor coming out with it.
Seems very conservative and risk averse way of instruction to me.
Otherwise maybe your son has the wrong end of the stick and is passing it off as the instructor coming out with it.
davepoth said:
If I remember correctly that's a way of teaching it -
How I taught my little brother clutch control. Empty car park with plenty of space and we didn't leave until he could pull away and then change up to second smoothly without using the throttle but I wouldn't ever do it on the road.I passed my test 2 and a bit years ago and I was never taught to do this - just to find the "biting point" and not apply too much power while on the clutch i.e. not to ride the clutch.
Took me a bit of getting used to, but I got it with practice. Never got the burning clutch smell thankfully
Took me a bit of getting used to, but I got it with practice. Never got the burning clutch smell thankfully
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