One for the Bib's & Solicitors
Discussion
My approach when caught bang to rights and invited to join some Bib's in the back of their car is to 'take it like a man,' give the details requested, get it done as painlessly as possible and get on my way.
I've read on another site a driver should NOT hand over their license and that they're only obliged to give their name address and occupation.
Even that when given a verbal NIP they could respond that they didn't recognise the words used and request a copy of PACE before they gave their answer. Also that if you have a passenger to get them to join you as a witness and request pen and paper. It does say not to expect this to go down well.
I'm curious from the Bib's what their reaction to this sort of response would be.
My serious question for the Bib's and solicitors is that on the two occassions I've experienced this I have been asked for, and given, my license, or when stopped by a Police hand held speed trap been asked for, and given my license. In the latter the WPC stated as the points on my license were almost expired I could take the offer of a FP.
I appreciate in some cases one's not gonna get a FP offer regardless of existing points due to the speed, but in others it might make a difference as above suggests if the points had been newer she might not have made the FP offer. So, what happens if a driver refuses to show their license or don't have it with them? If asked if they have existing points on their license are they obliged to reply? What happens if they lie?
Obviously in absence of a license they will get a producer but if they don't have it will they not get an offer of a FP when one might otherwise have been given? If they refuse to answer about the status of their license (if this is legal) will an offer not be given? If they were asked and lied and a FP offered would they have a chance of getting away with it? When caught by an Scamera and speed doesn't negate a FP offer are the drivers points checked before one is made?
I'm not proposing people try lying to a Bib regardless of the answers...but knowing whether to show your license at the time, or later would be useful...from my other thread you'll see I won't be getting the opportunity to test any response out for a while...and don't plan to need to! Purely out of curiosity you understand
>>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 02:39
>>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 02:46
I've read on another site a driver should NOT hand over their license and that they're only obliged to give their name address and occupation.
Even that when given a verbal NIP they could respond that they didn't recognise the words used and request a copy of PACE before they gave their answer. Also that if you have a passenger to get them to join you as a witness and request pen and paper. It does say not to expect this to go down well.
I'm curious from the Bib's what their reaction to this sort of response would be.
My serious question for the Bib's and solicitors is that on the two occassions I've experienced this I have been asked for, and given, my license, or when stopped by a Police hand held speed trap been asked for, and given my license. In the latter the WPC stated as the points on my license were almost expired I could take the offer of a FP.
I appreciate in some cases one's not gonna get a FP offer regardless of existing points due to the speed, but in others it might make a difference as above suggests if the points had been newer she might not have made the FP offer. So, what happens if a driver refuses to show their license or don't have it with them? If asked if they have existing points on their license are they obliged to reply? What happens if they lie?
Obviously in absence of a license they will get a producer but if they don't have it will they not get an offer of a FP when one might otherwise have been given? If they refuse to answer about the status of their license (if this is legal) will an offer not be given? If they were asked and lied and a FP offered would they have a chance of getting away with it? When caught by an Scamera and speed doesn't negate a FP offer are the drivers points checked before one is made?
I'm not proposing people try lying to a Bib regardless of the answers
...but knowing whether to show your license at the time, or later would be useful...from my other thread you'll see I won't be getting the opportunity to test any response out for a while...and don't plan to need to! Purely out of curiosity you understand >>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 02:39
>>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 02:46
The requirement at Law is that a driver has to produce his Licence/counterpart FOR EXAMINATION so as to enable the PC to ascertain the name and address of the holder, the date of issue and the authority by which it was issued. This to me means it should be handed over so that the officer can take details. In fact in the rust of the grey matter I seem to recall that there is a High Court judgement on this very point but have, so far, been unable to find it
Sufficient has been said in previous posts about its production in relation to whether a Fixed penalty should be issued or not due to points.
I used to quiet enjoy someone who adopted " the Barrack Room lawyer" approach to a pull and willingly entered into the spirit of things and brought forward all my knowledge of road traffic matters/powers and exercised them. Failure to receive co-operation was generally to the detriment of the BRL. Further, those with something to hide were the most prone to employ this course of action, which again was another challenge willingly accepted and appreciated when the cuffs went on.
.....all done with the best possible taste, of course.
DVD
Sufficient has been said in previous posts about its production in relation to whether a Fixed penalty should be issued or not due to points.
I used to quiet enjoy someone who adopted " the Barrack Room lawyer" approach to a pull and willingly entered into the spirit of things and brought forward all my knowledge of road traffic matters/powers and exercised them. Failure to receive co-operation was generally to the detriment of the BRL. Further, those with something to hide were the most prone to employ this course of action, which again was another challenge willingly accepted and appreciated when the cuffs went on.
.....all done with the best possible taste, of course.
DVD
Hi Tom.
Good post..
May I also congratulate you on your 'approach' as you describe it in your first paragraph.
Right then...The info that has to be passed are: Name, Date of Birth and address..(Occupation isn't compulsary)
It doesn't matter if they didn't understand the NIP, even if it was said to them at the time. I always send a written one in addition to the one said at the time and this is 'best practise' After all it's confusing "YOU WILL BE REPORTED FOR CONSIDERATION, THE QUESTION OF PROSECUTING YOU FOR.........."
As for handing over licence..I can't see the problem..If I'm going to warn or if I'm going to prosecute it doesn't matter to me if the licence is handed over then or later..it doesn't affect my decision in the slightest.
As for a passenger joining us...initially I would say no way..My offside rear seat has my kit bag and other stuff on it, so there isn't any room. As for pen and paper..if you want to bring such items from your car..feel free, but I have no duty to supply such items to you and I wont. I think you are asking for trouble by going to such lengths, afterall when I stop someone, I'm looking at changing their ideas to driving and making them a better driver by the information and advice that I give them. Now that might, and often does, only mean a telling off and their details in my black book. It might also mean a ticket or being reported on summons. However, if a driver starts to dictate to me what he/she does or doesn't want to do and 'can I bring my mate in the car' 'Have you got a pen and paper for me?' etc etc; I will take the 'hump' and deal with them in a more positive way. You might think that's wrong of me, but I have discretion to chose what option I take. The attitude of the driver sometimes dictates that to me and I've known hundreds of people that I had originally intended to just warn that left my vehicle with points and a fine. (Is it really worth all that to your licence and your pocket, just to have the last word or to be argumentative?) I think not.
I hope my honest answer is of benefit to PHs
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Friday 16th July 08:43
Good post..
May I also congratulate you on your 'approach' as you describe it in your first paragraph.
Right then...The info that has to be passed are: Name, Date of Birth and address..(Occupation isn't compulsary)
It doesn't matter if they didn't understand the NIP, even if it was said to them at the time. I always send a written one in addition to the one said at the time and this is 'best practise' After all it's confusing "YOU WILL BE REPORTED FOR CONSIDERATION, THE QUESTION OF PROSECUTING YOU FOR.........."
As for handing over licence..I can't see the problem..If I'm going to warn or if I'm going to prosecute it doesn't matter to me if the licence is handed over then or later..it doesn't affect my decision in the slightest.
As for a passenger joining us...initially I would say no way..My offside rear seat has my kit bag and other stuff on it, so there isn't any room. As for pen and paper..if you want to bring such items from your car..feel free, but I have no duty to supply such items to you and I wont. I think you are asking for trouble by going to such lengths, afterall when I stop someone, I'm looking at changing their ideas to driving and making them a better driver by the information and advice that I give them. Now that might, and often does, only mean a telling off and their details in my black book. It might also mean a ticket or being reported on summons. However, if a driver starts to dictate to me what he/she does or doesn't want to do and 'can I bring my mate in the car' 'Have you got a pen and paper for me?' etc etc; I will take the 'hump' and deal with them in a more positive way. You might think that's wrong of me, but I have discretion to chose what option I take. The attitude of the driver sometimes dictates that to me and I've known hundreds of people that I had originally intended to just warn that left my vehicle with points and a fine. (Is it really worth all that to your licence and your pocket, just to have the last word or to be argumentative?) I think not.
I hope my honest answer is of benefit to PHs
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Friday 16th July 08:43
I do have to say that on the 4-5 occassions i've been pulled over, i've always driven away without even a producer. I have nil points on my licence (touch wood!). Why? Because i don't "give it the big 'un!" If you hold your hands up, be polite, and swear it was a one-off, chances are you'll be okay. I've no doubt at all that if i started preaching the law (or what i thought of it) to plod, he would quite rightly think "okay smart arse heres your ticket!"
Having said that, if he's putting pen to paper and you're screwed either way, then start writing and get that witness out your car! What have you got to lose......
Having said that, if he's putting pen to paper and you're screwed either way, then start writing and get that witness out your car! What have you got to lose......
Themoss said:
I do have to say that on the 4-5 occassions i've been pulled over, i've always driven away without even a producer. I have nil points on my licence (touch wood!). Why? Because i don't "give it the big 'un!" If you hold your hands up, be polite, and swear it was a one-off, chances are you'll be okay. I've no doubt at all that if i started preaching the law (or what i thought of it) to plod, he would quite rightly think "okay smart arse heres your ticket!"
Having said that, if he's putting pen to paper and you're screwed either way, then start writing and get that witness out your car! What have you got to lose......
Glad you've done ok Themoss....
Just clarify what you writing and getting your witness out of the car is going to do exactly...
Street
I have 0 points on my licence but have been stopped more times than I care to recall!
It defies logic to argue / go against what the police are saying 99% of the time.
I am always very polite and able to admit if I have made a mistake, after all we are human and are known to make a mistake or two.
Everytime I drive my cars with foreign plates in the UK they seem to leave me alone Must look like more hassle than its worth.
It defies logic to argue / go against what the police are saying 99% of the time.
I am always very polite and able to admit if I have made a mistake, after all we are human and are known to make a mistake or two.
Everytime I drive my cars with foreign plates in the UK they seem to leave me alone
Must look like more hassle than its worth. I've always made a point of carrying all my docs for my cars or bikes.
It's my belief that if the BiB is in an elevated state of excitedness shoving a heap of paper under his nose gives him a few moments to calm down.
Secondly it removes any doubt that you are a responsbile memeber of society with everything in order.
Last time I took the Rally car out for spin from London upto Warwickshire I was pulled over no less than 5 times!
However, it readily became apparent that most of them were far more interested in having a good look around inside the car and under the bonnet and passing comment on all the stickers.
Only one time in being pulled have I ever found BiB to be less than polite and reasonable and I've been caught doing some stupid things. Somehow I've always managed to appeal to their better nature and walk away with nothing more than a wry grin on my face.
The one exception was as a learner motorcyclist in South Manchester. At night whislt overtaking a car at about 40 mph in the outside lane of a dual carriage way I was alertetd to vehicle fast approaching from behind.
I accelrated to about 45-50 to complete the overtaking and as I moved back into the left lane on came the blue lights.
I'd pulled up, got off the bike and had my helemt half off when this police officer comes charging towards me yelling at me to get my helmet off.
He was, frankly quite rude and obnoxious - there's not a lot you can do in that situation as a 17yr old - it was very intimidating. I took the FP and got off home.
best
Ex
It's my belief that if the BiB is in an elevated state of excitedness shoving a heap of paper under his nose gives him a few moments to calm down.
Secondly it removes any doubt that you are a responsbile memeber of society with everything in order.
Last time I took the Rally car out for spin from London upto Warwickshire I was pulled over no less than 5 times!
However, it readily became apparent that most of them were far more interested in having a good look around inside the car and under the bonnet and passing comment on all the stickers.
Only one time in being pulled have I ever found BiB to be less than polite and reasonable and I've been caught doing some stupid things. Somehow I've always managed to appeal to their better nature and walk away with nothing more than a wry grin on my face.
The one exception was as a learner motorcyclist in South Manchester. At night whislt overtaking a car at about 40 mph in the outside lane of a dual carriage way I was alertetd to vehicle fast approaching from behind.
I accelrated to about 45-50 to complete the overtaking and as I moved back into the left lane on came the blue lights.
I'd pulled up, got off the bike and had my helemt half off when this police officer comes charging towards me yelling at me to get my helmet off.
He was, frankly quite rude and obnoxious - there's not a lot you can do in that situation as a 17yr old - it was very intimidating. I took the FP and got off home.
best
Ex
In 45 years of driving I think I have only been a bit miffed once, and that was in 1963. I passed through a 30 limit at 10-00 PM in my Mini 850 at 40 mph and got pulled by a traffic car. You might say that this is fair enough, but the new signs making the 30 into a 40 just 36 hours later were already in place and covered with sacking. I thought that an 'It's not 40 quite yet, son', would have sufficed, but I got what was then called an endorsement.
Since then I've been nicked for speeding twice (in 1973 and 1988) and had no complaints either time. I've been stopped several times, told to 'keep it down a bit' and sent on my way. I've no complaints at all and I've always found the BiB friendly, even on the occassions when I've been reported.
The cameras, though, are a very different matter!
Since then I've been nicked for speeding twice (in 1973 and 1988) and had no complaints either time. I've been stopped several times, told to 'keep it down a bit' and sent on my way. I've no complaints at all and I've always found the BiB friendly, even on the occassions when I've been reported.
The cameras, though, are a very different matter!
TheExcession said:
He was, frankly quite rude and obnoxious - there's not a lot you can do in that situation as a 17yr old - it was very intimidating. I took the FP and got off home.
best
Ex
At 18 I was driving a 3 door Sierra Cosworth and asking for trouble but at the time I thought it was great. Looking back now, I was just asking for trouble.
I got into the habit of keeping all my documents in one little pouch, when the police approached the car I would put my window down and hand them it before they could say anything.
When they gave me a producer I would take out another pouch already with 2 or 3 producers in it and say 'I'll get them all in one go next week'.
Should have driven a Ford Fiesta.
Deester said:
I got into the habit of keeping all my documents in one little pouch, when the police approached the car I would put my window down and hand them it before they could say anything.
If documents are thrust through an open window at me...it's surprising how clumsy I can be at times...all fingers and thumbs...driving licence, log book, insurance certificate and MOT blowing down the street...
...tends to get the driver out of his car like he's got a rocket up his arse....
In the words of Alan Partride..."Needless to say, I have the last laugh...
" Street
Well to be quite honest the only time I've ever thought a b-i-b attitude was a bit off was once again getting a pull in the rally car.
The fact the pull was for 40 in a 40 when he erroneously thought it was a 30 says it all really. He'd missed the limit change at the roundabout.
After some protracted but, at least on our side, polite "discussion" he was finally sent on his way with a flea in his ear.
[DVD fyi, you know who was in observer's seat so when it started getting silly regret to say rank was eventually pulled
]
The fact the pull was for 40 in a 40 when he erroneously thought it was a 30 says it all really. He'd missed the limit change at the roundabout.
After some protracted but, at least on our side, polite "discussion" he was finally sent on his way with a flea in his ear.
[DVD fyi, you know who was in observer's seat so when it started getting silly regret to say rank was eventually pulled
]Streetcop said:
I got into the habit of keeping all my documents in one little pouch, when the police approached the car I would put my window down and hand them it before they could say anything.
If documents are thrust through an open window at me...it's surprising how clumsy I can be at times...all fingers and thumbs...driving licence, log book, insurance certificate and MOT blowing down the street...
In the words of Alan Partride..."Needless to say, I have the last laugh...
Street
I'm not a yob! I respect the police, no documents were 'thrust' at anyone!
I'd been in the situation so many times it was becoming tiresome but at no point was I rude.
I thank you...
Streetcop said:
Hi Tom.
Good post..
May I also congratulate you on your 'approach' as you describe it in your first paragraph.
Thanks...why make a bad situation worse I think.
"YOU WILL BE REPORTED FOR CONSIDERATION, THE QUESTION OF PROSECUTING YOU FOR.........."
Have to say in my recent case nothing close to these words were used. But then, if I'd tried to use that in defence in court, whether I'd had pen and paper or not, I figure they'd have been wondering what planet I came from
As for handing over licence..I can't see the problem..If I'm going to warn or if I'm going to prosecute it doesn't matter to me if the licence is handed over then or later..it doesn't affect my decision in the slightest.
That is interesting because it did seem in one of my cases it might have. As you say you have discretion, and maybe some Bib's use the license to finalise decision and some don't.
My offside rear seat has my kit bag and other stuff on it, so there isn't any room.
I know...barely room for me let alone a witness
As for pen and paper..if you want to bring such items from your car..feel free, but I have no duty to supply such items to you and I wont.
I'm not going to give the name of the site as I think this thread is already showing that in this area they might be right legally but it is not going to do you any favours. But here is what they say...Street...check the bit about pen and paper...have you forgotten you are a public servant
If you have anything to say for yourself make sure that, you say it after the verbal NIP. The traffic officer has a duty to record your response to the verbal NIP. Following the High Court ruling in the Yorke and Mawdesley case (31st July 2003), you may have a right to refer to PACE after you receive the verbal NIP.
If you have a passenger ask them if they will join you in the patrol car so that they can act as your witness - don’t forget to ask them to take notes. The police officers can't stop them doing this, but they probably won’t like it!
Ensure that your explanation for your actions has been recorded. Don't just say you are "late for a meeting"!
Keep calm, be polite and take your time to think about what you are saying.
Never Produce your driving licence at the road side. You only have to provide the officer with your name, address and occupation.
If you are "cautioned" by the Traffic Officer this link explains what you can do to "buy yourself some time". The High Court ruling in the Yorke and Mawdesley case (31st July 2003), means that you may have a right to refer to PACE, even if you are not cautioned by the officer.
If you don't have a paper and pen ask to borrow one from the officer.
Don't forget that police officers are public servants and they have a basic duty to assist the public. Don't feel intimidated by them.
However, if a driver starts to dictate to me what he/she does or doesn't want to do and 'can I bring my mate in the car' 'Have you got a pen and paper for me?' etc etc; I will take the 'hump' and deal with them in a more positive way.
As I've said in another post...you make me laugh...thanks
And I'm not going to think that the above is wrong of you...if I had chosen a different career I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be the same
I hope my honest answer is of benefit to PHs
I am new but already coming to appreciate your honesty very much
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Friday 16th July 08:43
Streetcop said:
I got into the habit of keeping all my documents in one little pouch, when the police approached the car I would put my window down and hand them it before they could say anything.
If documents are thrust through an open window at me...it's surprising how clumsy I can be at times...all fingers and thumbs...driving licence, log book, insurance certificate and MOT blowing down the street...
In the words of Alan Partride..."Needless to say, I have the last laugh...
Street
Maybe he had a case of minor women's whiplash and didn't want to get out of the car...
PMSL
Ex
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