I missed my day in court........advice please.
Discussion
Hi chaps,
I wonder what you guys would do in my position?
I got an NIP back in January 2004 for doing 63 in a 50. I discussed the matter on this forum. I DID sign it and I sent it back. The NIP WAS sent to me within the 2 weeks.
However, I hadn't heard back from them since January. I thought I was off the hook.
Then yesterday I got a letter saying that I had missed my day in court in June. I never got the invitation to attend court. The letter states that my license has been endorsed in my absence.
I am pee'd off because I didn't get chance to contest the decision. I would have at least wanted to see the photographic evidence before accepting the points.
Please give me advice.
Thanks
John.
I wonder what you guys would do in my position?
I got an NIP back in January 2004 for doing 63 in a 50. I discussed the matter on this forum. I DID sign it and I sent it back. The NIP WAS sent to me within the 2 weeks.
However, I hadn't heard back from them since January. I thought I was off the hook.
Then yesterday I got a letter saying that I had missed my day in court in June. I never got the invitation to attend court. The letter states that my license has been endorsed in my absence.
I am pee'd off because I didn't get chance to contest the decision. I would have at least wanted to see the photographic evidence before accepting the points.
Please give me advice.
Thanks
John.
woodytvr said:
You don't leagally have to inform your insurance company until renewal time and most insurers if informed part way through a policy won't add it until renewal - That's what DirectLine told me anyway.
Only going to cost about £20 for and SP30 so I wouldn't worry.
It's the points that bug me. I have had a clean license up til now.
woodytvr said:
You don't leagally have to inform your insurance company until renewal time and most insurers if informed part way through a policy won't add it until renewal - That's what DirectLine told me anyway.
Only going to cost about £20 for and SP30 so I wouldn't worry.
That might be the case with that particular company, but I'm currently dealing with an accident where the 'guilty' party is making a claim. However, since his renewal he's aquired 3 points for a speeding offence and didn't inform them of this. Now that the insurance firm are looking at paying out nearly £20,000 for two vehicles, they are claiming that their customer didn't fulfil his requirements (as laid in extremely small print on the policy book) by not telling them of his penalty points. Consequently, they have paid out for the third party's car, but haven't paid anything for the customers vehicle as present time. They have hinted that if they do agree to pay out, the amount will be significantly less than normal due to not being in possession of the full facts of his driving licence....
All sounds a lot of hassle that could have been avoided by making a intsy wintsy phone call to tell them of your aquired penalty points..
Street
kevinday said:
Johnny,
If you admitted it on the form you sent back I do not hink you would need to go to court, as you have already pleaded guilty.
DVD, JA or resident
You're right Kevin, but I think there's more to this than that...I get the feeling our man has elected to go to court, then never got the summons..I'm guessing.
Street
In not taking the Conditional Offer route - and I don't know who breached this them or the poster, then Court action started. Of this, IIRC it is the right of the defendant to have his day in Court and if the Clerk was unable to prove service of summons or plea of defendant, then the case should not have been been heard.
The fact that this was not carried out will not bar new proceedings as fresh summons could be issued.
To me, taking proceedings at Court on a signed 172 with no summons, is wrong.
Further a summons will show the date the information was laid and if outside 6 months from the offence then case cannot proceed - limitation on proceedings expired.
Suggest visit to CAB with all that you have paperwise and get a Solicitors view on events. From circs described, if true, seems malpractice of justice.
DVD
The fact that this was not carried out will not bar new proceedings as fresh summons could be issued.
To me, taking proceedings at Court on a signed 172 with no summons, is wrong.
Further a summons will show the date the information was laid and if outside 6 months from the offence then case cannot proceed - limitation on proceedings expired.
Suggest visit to CAB with all that you have paperwise and get a Solicitors view on events. From circs described, if true, seems malpractice of justice.
DVD
I think what normally happens is the defendant visits or writes to the court and tells them that no summons was received and the magistrates will usually set aside the judgement and re-hear the case.
Go to www.pepipoo.com and ask on there.
Gareth
Go to www.pepipoo.com and ask on there.
Gareth
woodytvr said:
You don't leagally have to inform your insurance company until renewal time and most insurers if informed part way through a policy won't add it until renewal - That's what DirectLine told me anyway.
Only going to cost about £20 for and SP30 so I wouldn't worry.
Agree that it seems the case that any speeding type material facts anyway, don't seem to have an effect until renewal. I have just informed mine about my ban and even for that it is the case.
However, to agree with Streetcop, it states on the policy any material facts concerning your policy during the period of cover must be notified IMMEDIATELY. The print isn't that small on mine
and I'm pretty sure anyone would be hard pressed to find a company that wouldn't use this to save themselves a big pay out given the chance. I also agree, and I'm surprised that it doesn't seem to make as much difference as I thought. I'm with the firm that like to 'Quote You Happy' and even with a ban they seem to think at renewal it will make little or no difference. Makes you wonder why it is so important to let them know immediately. Unless it is to make you avoid telling them and thus give them an out at claim time...or am I just too cynical
John
Got the spade out and did some more digging to add flesh to the bones of the earlier thread.
Just to recap to show the sequence that should have occurred, and I don't know where it went wrong.
Flash
NOIP/S172 forms to RC.
S172 sent back naming you driver.
Option:
You say you signed 172 and sent back after which you should have received Conditional offer valid 28 days but you didn't. Moved house?
Not hearing from you after conditional offer, court proceedings started. Information laid, summons issued.
Summons for service can be :
personally (no?)
Left with another at last known address or usual place of abode.(?)
By Reg or recorded Delivery Post. (No you say you didn't receive)
The summoms for this offence when sent out would be accompanied by a Statement of Fact (brief resume of offence and evidence) and information as to how to plead - Guilty by letter, Not Guilty etc.
When the case was heard Clerk, having no response from summons would call your name in Court. No answer. Would then check that the summons had been served correctly (back generally endorsed with Certificate of Service)and if satisfied it had been served correctly, can proceed with case in absence of offender. (My day no response/letter to S of F then took it summons not served- case adjourned ).
With me so far?
Now so you have been denied your day in Court. If you want it this is the position.
You have to invoke Section 14 Magistrates Courts Act 1980, which states where a summons has been issued for a person to appear at Court, if at any time during or after the trial, the accused makes a statutory declaration (careful on this as a falsehood very serious) that he did not know of the summons until a date specified in the declaration, being a date after the case Court date.
This declaration, within 21 days of the date in the declaration, has to be served upon the Justices Chief Executive for the Court. (Would suggest either personally or recorded post c/o Magistrates Clerks Office for Court concerned who incidentally would be your point of contact for the declaration form).
However one can extend the 21 days by application to a single JP if it can be shown not possible to serve within 21 days.
The effect of this is to make that earlier hearing null and void.
Great you say - ah but there is a sting in the tail you didn't think they would make it that simple?
They can re-issue the summons and start afresh but the Magistates that heard the original case cannot sit in judgement on the new case.
DVD
Got the spade out and did some more digging to add flesh to the bones of the earlier thread.
Just to recap to show the sequence that should have occurred, and I don't know where it went wrong.
Flash
NOIP/S172 forms to RC.
S172 sent back naming you driver.
Option:
You say you signed 172 and sent back after which you should have received Conditional offer valid 28 days but you didn't. Moved house?
Not hearing from you after conditional offer, court proceedings started. Information laid, summons issued.
Summons for service can be :
personally (no?)
Left with another at last known address or usual place of abode.(?)
By Reg or recorded Delivery Post. (No you say you didn't receive)
The summoms for this offence when sent out would be accompanied by a Statement of Fact (brief resume of offence and evidence) and information as to how to plead - Guilty by letter, Not Guilty etc.
When the case was heard Clerk, having no response from summons would call your name in Court. No answer. Would then check that the summons had been served correctly (back generally endorsed with Certificate of Service)and if satisfied it had been served correctly, can proceed with case in absence of offender. (My day no response/letter to S of F then took it summons not served- case adjourned ).
With me so far?
Now so you have been denied your day in Court. If you want it this is the position.
You have to invoke Section 14 Magistrates Courts Act 1980, which states where a summons has been issued for a person to appear at Court, if at any time during or after the trial, the accused makes a statutory declaration (careful on this as a falsehood very serious) that he did not know of the summons until a date specified in the declaration, being a date after the case Court date.
This declaration, within 21 days of the date in the declaration, has to be served upon the Justices Chief Executive for the Court. (Would suggest either personally or recorded post c/o Magistrates Clerks Office for Court concerned who incidentally would be your point of contact for the declaration form).
However one can extend the 21 days by application to a single JP if it can be shown not possible to serve within 21 days.
The effect of this is to make that earlier hearing null and void.
Great you say - ah but there is a sting in the tail you didn't think they would make it that simple?
They can re-issue the summons and start afresh but the Magistates that heard the original case cannot sit in judgement on the new case.
DVD
DVD,
That is very helpful, thank you.
I did sign the NIP but I didn't get the form back giving me the chance to pay 60 quid and accept 3 points. Neither did I receive a summons. I only received a letter the other day stating that I had missed my day in court.
Now then......a neighbour of mine called Jane, who I hardly know, e-mailed me 3 days ago and told me that another neighbour had received a letter meant for me that sounds like the summons for the case heard in June. WHY ON EARTH I wasn't given the letter, I have no idea. At least I have evidence that the summons wasn't delivered to my house.
Thanks again, I will weigh up my options.
That is very helpful, thank you.
I did sign the NIP but I didn't get the form back giving me the chance to pay 60 quid and accept 3 points. Neither did I receive a summons. I only received a letter the other day stating that I had missed my day in court.
Now then......a neighbour of mine called Jane, who I hardly know, e-mailed me 3 days ago and told me that another neighbour had received a letter meant for me that sounds like the summons for the case heard in June. WHY ON EARTH I wasn't given the letter, I have no idea. At least I have evidence that the summons wasn't delivered to my house.
Thanks again, I will weigh up my options.
I am so happy I could BURST!!!!!!!!!!
Just an update for you fellas.
In the end, I decided to just pay up, because after following DVD's advice, I had a close look to see if the summons was sent within 6 months, and it was, so I figured I had to pay. However, I did write a letter to them as well saying that my payment was so late because they had sent the summons to the wrong address and my dozy neighbour took ages to hand the summons over to me.
Then the Magistrates wrote me a letter back saying that the case had been re-opened and withdrawn with no fine for me to pay!! No explanation was given except that I assume it was thrown out because they sent the summons to the wrong address. It just goes to show that you should write as many letters as possible and so on and don't just roll over a pay up without a fight.
On a side note, they are now wanting a £450 fine for unpaid tax on the Citroen AX GT I sold over 4 years ago.........they are doing my napper in. I'll ring them about this tomorrow. Obviously I won't be paying this fine.
Just an update for you fellas.
In the end, I decided to just pay up, because after following DVD's advice, I had a close look to see if the summons was sent within 6 months, and it was, so I figured I had to pay. However, I did write a letter to them as well saying that my payment was so late because they had sent the summons to the wrong address and my dozy neighbour took ages to hand the summons over to me.
Then the Magistrates wrote me a letter back saying that the case had been re-opened and withdrawn with no fine for me to pay!! No explanation was given except that I assume it was thrown out because they sent the summons to the wrong address. It just goes to show that you should write as many letters as possible and so on and don't just roll over a pay up without a fight.
On a side note, they are now wanting a £450 fine for unpaid tax on the Citroen AX GT I sold over 4 years ago.........they are doing my napper in. I'll ring them about this tomorrow. Obviously I won't be paying this fine.
Touching on what Streetcop said about insurance companies not paying out etc etc. I'm not surprised they try it on...robbing b*stards. There are very few situations which allow the insurance coy to avoid paying the policy holder out. Points is NOT one of them. Drink driving or an unroadworthy car, sure (but not simply failing to have an MOT).
The legal issue being, would the insurance company continue to cover you if you have 3 or 6 points. The answer is yes albeit with a slight premium adjustment.
The legal issue being, would the insurance company continue to cover you if you have 3 or 6 points. The answer is yes albeit with a slight premium adjustment.
andygo said:
Good result there.
On the other hand, I would be a bit leery to admitting I had owned an AX though!
They are great little tin cans! I got given a lightly crashed AX GTi, and fixed it up to commute to work instead of using my MR2 Turbo. 40+mpg, 0-60 in < 9seconds and a real hoot to drive. Wouldn't like to hit anything too solid in it though...
didnt someone say on here that you can tell an insurance company a total can of lie to do with a policy and you are still legally covered third p-arty in eyes of the law, well i am 65 with full no claims..... maybe they would take you through the civil courts? what about drink driving accident where they pay out without question then say find out you were drunk can they ask for the money back???
Hardcore2000 said:
didnt someone say on here that you can tell an insurance company a total can of lie to do with a policy and you are still legally covered third p-arty in eyes of the law, well i am 65 with full no claims..... maybe they would take you through the civil courts? what about drink driving accident where they pay out without question then say find out you were drunk can they ask for the money back???
They can never avoid paying out for third party damage.
BUT they will come after you to reimburse them for the money they paid out, first a nice letter and after no payment they will take you to court to recover.
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