Does the SPL have a future?
Discussion
Before I begin - I did do a search to see if a similar thread, but the search facility was not working. Also I am not trying to be inflammatory with this thread, but just curious as to what will happen in future - so if I am perceived as taking the piss, please take it with a pinch of salt it is probably my own ignorance of the Scottish game. All I know is that if you asked me any season who would win SPL, I would say Celtic or Rangers - which is where this post is going.
Firstly - I am English, but went to see a handful of games at Parkhead with my stepdad in my teenage years, so I have a soft spot for The Hoops - including an Old Firm derby with the winner scored by McAvennie from what I remember.
I heard the latest news this morning on the news about Rangers, and it seems to me that it is more and more inevitable that they are going to end up folding, leaving a huge hole in the SPL. I am sure I heard somewhere that the SPL TV contract is based upon a clause that states that both Celtic and Rangers must be in SPL? I have no doubt that with Rangers fanbase there will be a Phoenix from flames club - perhaps "Rangers 2012" - but I doubt that would let "Rangers 2012" back into SPL without gaining promotion etc, effectively meaning there is no competition in Scotland for the title for a few years.
I was thinking this morning - is now the right time to open the question again re Scottish teams playing in English league? Broadly speaking - I see Celtic/Rangers as low championship/high 1st division clubs, and the rest of the SPL teams are probably low 1st Division/2nd Div clubs.
There is a league of Wales, and yet we have Swansea doing well in EPL, and Cardiff reaching final of the 2nd largest English domestic cup. Is there not room for Scottish teams (if they want it) as well? The reason I have heard in the past is because it may affect International FA privileges, and National teams - but I do not see this with Wales. (If it did and we have to have a joint team we could take half of each coutries name and call it ENGland scotLAND 
anyway).
The other reason was that Scotland has it's own well supported competition in the SPL - I would argue that goes out of the window, until "Rangers 2012" get back to SPL in 4 years (or whatever it may be).
So is now the time to suggest that Scottish SPL is treated like the the Football Conference, with the winners going through to Division 2?
Firstly - I am English, but went to see a handful of games at Parkhead with my stepdad in my teenage years, so I have a soft spot for The Hoops - including an Old Firm derby with the winner scored by McAvennie from what I remember.
I heard the latest news this morning on the news about Rangers, and it seems to me that it is more and more inevitable that they are going to end up folding, leaving a huge hole in the SPL. I am sure I heard somewhere that the SPL TV contract is based upon a clause that states that both Celtic and Rangers must be in SPL? I have no doubt that with Rangers fanbase there will be a Phoenix from flames club - perhaps "Rangers 2012" - but I doubt that would let "Rangers 2012" back into SPL without gaining promotion etc, effectively meaning there is no competition in Scotland for the title for a few years.
I was thinking this morning - is now the right time to open the question again re Scottish teams playing in English league? Broadly speaking - I see Celtic/Rangers as low championship/high 1st division clubs, and the rest of the SPL teams are probably low 1st Division/2nd Div clubs.
There is a league of Wales, and yet we have Swansea doing well in EPL, and Cardiff reaching final of the 2nd largest English domestic cup. Is there not room for Scottish teams (if they want it) as well? The reason I have heard in the past is because it may affect International FA privileges, and National teams - but I do not see this with Wales. (If it did and we have to have a joint team we could take half of each coutries name and call it ENG
anyway).The other reason was that Scotland has it's own well supported competition in the SPL - I would argue that goes out of the window, until "Rangers 2012" get back to SPL in 4 years (or whatever it may be).
So is now the time to suggest that Scottish SPL is treated like the the Football Conference, with the winners going through to Division 2?
Aberdeen fan here.
personally i have no interest whatsoever watching Aberdeen in the English leagues, none. we are Scottish and we play in the SPL. I go to pretty much all the home games, and a few away ones during the season, how am i supposed to travel to Plymouth or Exeter or somewhere else to watch my team play? its bad enough travelling down to Kilmarnock, even Inverness is a pain as the A96 there is shocking! so less away fans means less punters in the grounds and less atmosphere.
Rangers and Celtic only want to play in England as they see the money on offer from the TV deals down south and want a bit of that pie. its not for football reasons, purely money and this greed is good attitude is whats killing football.
My team plays in the cup this weekend, away tie at Motherwell. mate of mine had organised a bus down when the game was originally scheduled for the Saturday at 3pm and had a full 55 seater lined up, game got moved to the sunday for a 3.45pm kick off (WTF??) now he only has 9 interested so bus has been cancelled. means less suport for my team and less money for both clubs as there wont be that 55 fans there.
All through this Rangers crisis we have been told "we need Rangers and Celtic for the TV deal" to be honest id be glad if the only tv deal we had is highlights on a Saturday night. games back to being 3pm on a saturday with the odd midweek games (though i did like the home friday night fixture we had recently) and fans having to go to the grounds to watch their team. clubs would soon adjust their budgets and clubs will have to live within their means.
If the Old firm want to go, let them i say, so we can get back to a competitive league run for the many, not for the two...
personally i have no interest whatsoever watching Aberdeen in the English leagues, none. we are Scottish and we play in the SPL. I go to pretty much all the home games, and a few away ones during the season, how am i supposed to travel to Plymouth or Exeter or somewhere else to watch my team play? its bad enough travelling down to Kilmarnock, even Inverness is a pain as the A96 there is shocking! so less away fans means less punters in the grounds and less atmosphere.
Rangers and Celtic only want to play in England as they see the money on offer from the TV deals down south and want a bit of that pie. its not for football reasons, purely money and this greed is good attitude is whats killing football.
My team plays in the cup this weekend, away tie at Motherwell. mate of mine had organised a bus down when the game was originally scheduled for the Saturday at 3pm and had a full 55 seater lined up, game got moved to the sunday for a 3.45pm kick off (WTF??) now he only has 9 interested so bus has been cancelled. means less suport for my team and less money for both clubs as there wont be that 55 fans there.
All through this Rangers crisis we have been told "we need Rangers and Celtic for the TV deal" to be honest id be glad if the only tv deal we had is highlights on a Saturday night. games back to being 3pm on a saturday with the odd midweek games (though i did like the home friday night fixture we had recently) and fans having to go to the grounds to watch their team. clubs would soon adjust their budgets and clubs will have to live within their means.
If the Old firm want to go, let them i say, so we can get back to a competitive league run for the many, not for the two...
however you see the clubs present or past teams, or how anyone else sees them doesn't really matter
both clubs have attendances of 45,000 plus, which puts them right in the top half of the premiership, with a level playing field of money coming in, status for attracting players etc, so there no reason they couldn't go on to build on that
Celtic's attendance is slightly better than Newcastle's who are the 3rd 'best attended' - Rangers would be a bit ahead of Liverpool who are 5th - and that's without the added attraction of playing against 'real clubs'
both clubs have attendances of 45,000 plus, which puts them right in the top half of the premiership, with a level playing field of money coming in, status for attracting players etc, so there no reason they couldn't go on to build on that
Celtic's attendance is slightly better than Newcastle's who are the 3rd 'best attended' - Rangers would be a bit ahead of Liverpool who are 5th - and that's without the added attraction of playing against 'real clubs'
chrisj_abz said:
...said stuff...
Interesting response - and as a fan I can see what you are saying, and I am not suprised by your response.If as you say the TV money went, football would become "cheaper" and probably lower standard, BUT I think it would increase the competitiveness. Would that be more attractive?
I am a Spurs fan, and a Gillingham supporter, so am used to my clubs being worlds apart, and the standard at Spurs being far higher than Gillingham, but I enjoy watching each equally - as they are both competitive.
As far as I am aware there is no promotion from League of Wales into the English football pyramid (happy to be corrected here). Would it work better if any teams chose to play in England then they could? Meanwhile those that did not want to change (for the good reasons stated above), would continue to play in a more competitive league, with lower quality of football?
Hugo a Gogo said:
however you see the clubs present or past teams, or how anyone else sees them doesn't really matter
both clubs have attendances of 45,000 plus, which puts them right in the top half of the premiership, with a level playing field of money coming in, status for attracting players etc, so there no reason they couldn't go on to build on that
Celtic's attendance is slightly better than Newcastle's who are the 3rd 'best attended' - Rangers would be a bit ahead of Liverpool who are 5th - and that's without the added attraction of playing against 'real clubs'
Attendance does not get you into the league though. Sheff Wed, leeds, West Ham, birmingham have large attendance, but it does not buy the right to be in the Premiership. Your assumption that if run correctly, they will be in the same place as others is fine, but historically, Rangers have not been well managed. both clubs have attendances of 45,000 plus, which puts them right in the top half of the premiership, with a level playing field of money coming in, status for attracting players etc, so there no reason they couldn't go on to build on that
Celtic's attendance is slightly better than Newcastle's who are the 3rd 'best attended' - Rangers would be a bit ahead of Liverpool who are 5th - and that's without the added attraction of playing against 'real clubs'
I´d like to see Scottish football remain in Scotland, I´d never support Celtic or Rangers joining the English league at anywhere other than the bottom rung and working their way up.
There's little chance of Rangers joining anything at the moment if the news is true. That's bad for Celtic as well since they'll have nobody of an equal standard to play against, and the TV revenue will fall off a cliff.
Without Rangers or Celtic the Scottish game will probably improve in the long term - having two teams monopolising all of the cups and the entries into Europe means very little exposure for anyone else.
Without Rangers or Celtic the Scottish game will probably improve in the long term - having two teams monopolising all of the cups and the entries into Europe means very little exposure for anyone else.
Presently there is an inherent bias in Scottish football towards both halves of the old firm. No rangers would mean that celtic no longer have their best friends (I mean most hated enemy) to side with on every issue. This should result in a much fairer carve up of SPL revenue and enable the ridiculous 11-1 voting system to be thrown out. Now it has been revealed that the TV deal is not dependent on 4 old firm fixtures a season the SPL could embrace a larger league which should gradually revive interest. As has been said a move back to Saturday 3pm KO's and a good highlights program would improve attendances which for the every other team in the SPL should mean any revenue lost through lesser TV deals is recouped.
Yes Celtic will probably walk to the next 10 titles without their mates but with the chance of a Champions league qualifier for second all it will need is one team to make it and it could be game on for the title considering the revenues (so long denied to the rest of us) available. Add into that the extra Euro spot that then opens up and for one extra lucky team the chance of some more revenue making.
All in all rangers going bust is the perfect opportunity for the rest of Scottish football to do something radical to improve the long term prospects of the game in Scotland. Supporters of non old firm teams are well aware it has been dying a long painful death these past 15 - 20 years. As long as the bias is removed from the game we could and should have a competitive league in 10 - 12 years time.
As for your comment on the league of Wales and gaining promotion to English leagues that is completely against the point of the league of Wales. It was only established in the early 90's as FIFA were suggesting that Wales was not a footballing nation in its own right (as it's teams played in the English leagues) so may be stripped of membership.
Yes Celtic will probably walk to the next 10 titles without their mates but with the chance of a Champions league qualifier for second all it will need is one team to make it and it could be game on for the title considering the revenues (so long denied to the rest of us) available. Add into that the extra Euro spot that then opens up and for one extra lucky team the chance of some more revenue making.
All in all rangers going bust is the perfect opportunity for the rest of Scottish football to do something radical to improve the long term prospects of the game in Scotland. Supporters of non old firm teams are well aware it has been dying a long painful death these past 15 - 20 years. As long as the bias is removed from the game we could and should have a competitive league in 10 - 12 years time.
As for your comment on the league of Wales and gaining promotion to English leagues that is completely against the point of the league of Wales. It was only established in the early 90's as FIFA were suggesting that Wales was not a footballing nation in its own right (as it's teams played in the English leagues) so may be stripped of membership.
130R said:
The jiffle king said:
I´d never support Celtic or Rangers joining the English league at anywhere other than the bottom rung and working their way up.
And neither would any of the English clubs.Mrtsgoldchain said:
As for your comment on the league of Wales and gaining promotion to English leagues that is completely against the point of the league of Wales. It was only established in the early 90's as FIFA were suggesting that Wales was not a footballing nation in its own right (as it's teams played in the English leagues) so may be stripped of membership.
I think you are agreeing with my point, and would maintain the ability for the winners of idependent league to have entries to European qualifers, and a national team etc, as well as the competitve league I referred to above.I can only see good things for Scottish football, if the above was to be considered. I still believe the standards would drop, but I think the fun would improve.
Ok, as an Englishman looking in that knows not a lot about Scottish football apart from Rangers and Celtic and I think Aberdeen were the last club other than the 2 Glasgow clubs to win the league.
You have 4 leagues made up of 42 teams, how many of those clubs are full time professional clubs. As a quick look seems to show that the average crowds of the bottom 2 leagues are below 1000, so they cannot all be full time can they?
What ever happens Rangers and Celtic will always be the top 2, so why not try restructuring and have something like the top 20 teams into something like North American sports do with their divisions. 4 divisions of 5 teams, all teams play each other home and away (38 game regular season), then the top 2 teams from each division play a knockout competition like the latter part of the champions league to come up with the grand champions.
You have 4 leagues made up of 42 teams, how many of those clubs are full time professional clubs. As a quick look seems to show that the average crowds of the bottom 2 leagues are below 1000, so they cannot all be full time can they?
What ever happens Rangers and Celtic will always be the top 2, so why not try restructuring and have something like the top 20 teams into something like North American sports do with their divisions. 4 divisions of 5 teams, all teams play each other home and away (38 game regular season), then the top 2 teams from each division play a knockout competition like the latter part of the champions league to come up with the grand champions.
Haggleburyfinius said:
My personal opinion is that Rangers and Celtic should have sucked it up and joined the bottom rungs of the English leagues long ago.
As for Rangers...they aren't going to disappear really, are they? The club will end up being restructured, debts written off etc and carry on as ever.
That's not how it's sounding at the moment. A new team may rise from the ashes, but it's not going to be Rangers any more.As for Rangers...they aren't going to disappear really, are they? The club will end up being restructured, debts written off etc and carry on as ever.
It has a future however it will be one with a lot less money albeit maybe one with more competitiveness.
TV revenue will be slashed without Rangers in the top flight. So less televised games should hopefully equal higher live crowds. Less money to spend externally should mean more chances given to local talent. The game will just become more grass roots and community based.
Celtic will be okay too so long as they can maintain their fantastic crowd numbers + a decent run in the EUROPA league (can't see them regularly qualifying for the cl and Scotland won't get an automatic CL group place anytime soon).
TV revenue will be slashed without Rangers in the top flight. So less televised games should hopefully equal higher live crowds. Less money to spend externally should mean more chances given to local talent. The game will just become more grass roots and community based.
Celtic will be okay too so long as they can maintain their fantastic crowd numbers + a decent run in the EUROPA league (can't see them regularly qualifying for the cl and Scotland won't get an automatic CL group place anytime soon).
Ok first things first. Its Celtic and Rangers. Not the other way round, basics first and all. Second the "Old Firm" does not exist. The two teams should not be put together collectively they are both separate.
Now to the main point of the thread. The SPL would flourish without Rangers. If they where to go out of existence the tv deal would inevitably collapse and prize money would shrink. Currently and for the last 10 years anyway, roughly 60% of the money goes to the top two. Now let's say for instance the new tv deal that comes in, with no Rangers in the league, was 50% less than the current one, the team finishing 2nd would make more money than they would have finishing third. Teams in Scotland don't make there money from the tv deal the biggest money-maker is getting people in through the turnstiles. Having no Rangers would lead to higher competition in the rest of the league as it will mean every team has a high chance of finishing one position higher in the league each season. Team + more success = higher attendances. From finishing higheer up in the league comes European football and atleast one extra home game which would be a sell-out at any ground in Scotland
Hope this makes sense and is understandable. Getting dizzy doing this on my phone on the train
Now to the main point of the thread. The SPL would flourish without Rangers. If they where to go out of existence the tv deal would inevitably collapse and prize money would shrink. Currently and for the last 10 years anyway, roughly 60% of the money goes to the top two. Now let's say for instance the new tv deal that comes in, with no Rangers in the league, was 50% less than the current one, the team finishing 2nd would make more money than they would have finishing third. Teams in Scotland don't make there money from the tv deal the biggest money-maker is getting people in through the turnstiles. Having no Rangers would lead to higher competition in the rest of the league as it will mean every team has a high chance of finishing one position higher in the league each season. Team + more success = higher attendances. From finishing higheer up in the league comes European football and atleast one extra home game which would be a sell-out at any ground in Scotland
Hope this makes sense and is understandable. Getting dizzy doing this on my phone on the train
If Celtic went south and they only managed to make it to the Championship, how would the fans react? How would the lack of European action affect fans and revenue?
Financially, it may be better for Celtic to stay in Scotland. Near guaranteed European money every year may outweigh the reduced SPL revenue.
Financially, it may be better for Celtic to stay in Scotland. Near guaranteed European money every year may outweigh the reduced SPL revenue.
Edited by pingu393 on Wednesday 7th March 22:14
Russ35 said:
You have 4 leagues made up of 42 teams, how many of those clubs are full time professional clubs. As a quick look seems to show that the average crowds of the bottom 2 leagues are below 1000, so they cannot all be full time can they?
What ever happens Rangers and Celtic will always be the top 2, so why not try restructuring and have something like the top 20 teams into something like North American sports do with their divisions. 4 divisions of 5 teams, all teams play each other home and away (38 game regular season), then the top 2 teams from each division play a knockout competition like the latter part of the champions league to come up with the grand champions.
Queen's Park are the only completely amateur club out of the 42 clubs in the SPL and SFL.What ever happens Rangers and Celtic will always be the top 2, so why not try restructuring and have something like the top 20 teams into something like North American sports do with their divisions. 4 divisions of 5 teams, all teams play each other home and away (38 game regular season), then the top 2 teams from each division play a knockout competition like the latter part of the champions league to come up with the grand champions.
In addition there are further "non-league" Senior clubs in the Highland League, East of Scotland League and South of Scotland League. There is also the separate tier of Junior clubs (Junior refers to their status as being non-members of the SFA, not age group or anything like that). Quite a few of these Senior "nonleague" and Junior clubs get attendances that put SFL sides in the 3rd Division to shame.
There is an argument that Scotland has too many professional clubs but nobody wants to do anything about it (nobody is going to tell clubs to merge with each other!).
Anyway, the SPL does not need Rangers (or the other side of the despicable coin for that matter). Getting into the Europa League, let alone the Champions League gives a club far more money than a season's worth of top 6 fixtures against the OF (only 3 home games against the OF if you finish in the bottom 6). Even a good run in the domestic cups is worth more. And crucially, with Rangers out of the way the odds of a non-OF team receiving the benefit increase. It is no coincidence that Scottish football has suffered as competitiveness drained out of the game over the past 20 years.
Amongst the supports of non-OF clubs there is talk of boycotts should a "newco" Rangers be readmitted into the league. Quite frankly the only outcome acceptable if Rangers are to continue as a football club after liquidation (a case of when, not if) is to start in the SFL Third Division. Unfortunately for Rangers, the SFL does not have any procedures to admit a club in their circumstances so they're rightfully denied admittance to the SPL then they effectively cease to exist.
ninja-lewis said:
Amongst the supports of non-OF clubs there is talk of boycotts should a "newco" Rangers be readmitted into the league. Quite frankly the only outcome acceptable if Rangers are to continue as a football club after liquidation (a case of when, not if) is to start in the SFL Third Division. Unfortunately for Rangers, the SFL does not have any procedures to admit a club in their circumstances so they're rightfully denied admittance to the SPL then they effectively cease to exist.
Interesting.......I agree it would be ridiculous if "Rangers 2012" were admitted straight to SPL. They should have to fight their way into the league like any team. I assumed that was a given - I did not realise that there was controversy over this, and it would be any other way.
That is really what prompted my post, I wondered if they would try to get elected to an English league (like AFC Wimbledon), and work their way up rather than doing the same in Scotland. As it has been banded around for years re the OF being in English league. Especially now you have described that there is no prescribed route back into the league through pre-dertmined promotion/relegation ladders.
It sounds that regardless, the SPL will be better without them - even if only temporary until they get themselves re-elected.
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