Opera - The Emperors New Clothes??
Discussion
I consider that I have a pretty broad church of music that I can listen to and really enjoy.
I read Stephen Frys most recent book, and he talks about his love for Wagner.I listened to Frank Skinner recently explaining how Opera changed his life and that came in a blinding flash while listening to it live .(My words based on my dodgy memory, but you get the jist). I then listened to a podcast of Brian Moore (he of the rugby variety) on Desert Island Discs. Opera again featured strongly and one of the arias was the disc he would take if limited to just one.
I've tried, more than once, and just this evening spent an hour or so zooming through itunes trying bits and pieces. I'm sorry, but it's bloody awful apart from a few tuneful bits and bobs. Each to their own and all that but I don't understand what they are hearing different to me.
So pained are my ears I am soothing them with Kashmir and will shortly switch to a bit of dub reggae.
Is it just me?
I should add that Genesis occupy a special place in my soul, so I am not averse to some twiddly bits.
I read Stephen Frys most recent book, and he talks about his love for Wagner.I listened to Frank Skinner recently explaining how Opera changed his life and that came in a blinding flash while listening to it live .(My words based on my dodgy memory, but you get the jist). I then listened to a podcast of Brian Moore (he of the rugby variety) on Desert Island Discs. Opera again featured strongly and one of the arias was the disc he would take if limited to just one.
I've tried, more than once, and just this evening spent an hour or so zooming through itunes trying bits and pieces. I'm sorry, but it's bloody awful apart from a few tuneful bits and bobs. Each to their own and all that but I don't understand what they are hearing different to me.
So pained are my ears I am soothing them with Kashmir and will shortly switch to a bit of dub reggae.
Is it just me?
I should add that Genesis occupy a special place in my soul, so I am not averse to some twiddly bits.
I'm partially with you, chap, with a long term affair with all things Zep and Gabriel-era Genesis. I also love classical, but opera can be very divisive.
Mrs k, for example, also likes a bit of classical but on hearing "screechy stuff" i.e. female sopranos she runs for the hills. I'm usually not far behind, preferring a mezzo-soprano. Also, many operas have impenetrable plots e.g. Mozart's The Magic Flute, whilst others go on for ever and a day e.g. Wagner's The Ring Cycle. So you need a certain constitution to fully explore opera (IMVHO), and I don't have it.
So I limit myself to enjoying certain arias or passages from certain operas.
One of my favourites is:
O Soave Fanciulla
Or, for one of the ultimate workouts for a tenor:
Pour Mon Ame
Or, choral deliciousness:
Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves
Mrs k, for example, also likes a bit of classical but on hearing "screechy stuff" i.e. female sopranos she runs for the hills. I'm usually not far behind, preferring a mezzo-soprano. Also, many operas have impenetrable plots e.g. Mozart's The Magic Flute, whilst others go on for ever and a day e.g. Wagner's The Ring Cycle. So you need a certain constitution to fully explore opera (IMVHO), and I don't have it.
So I limit myself to enjoying certain arias or passages from certain operas.
One of my favourites is:
O Soave Fanciulla
Or, for one of the ultimate workouts for a tenor:
Pour Mon Ame
Or, choral deliciousness:
Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves
The thing about opera is it is as much about the spectacle of the performance as it is the music. Don't write opera off until you have been to see one. I understand what you are saying about sopranos (some are a bit over the top), but it is something else to hear someone singing properly live - a completely different experience to listening to a recording. That said, opera contains some of the most dramatic music ever written.
I like Wagner, but then I'm a classical musician and so can appreciate it differently to someone who isn't. There is some complex stuff in it that is perhaps a bit impenetrable to someone who isn't used to it. Mozart's operas are quite fun and musically much simpler. Verdi and Puccini are also fairly accessible.
Puccini's Turandot is probably my favourite opera.
I like Wagner, but then I'm a classical musician and so can appreciate it differently to someone who isn't. There is some complex stuff in it that is perhaps a bit impenetrable to someone who isn't used to it. Mozart's operas are quite fun and musically much simpler. Verdi and Puccini are also fairly accessible.
Puccini's Turandot is probably my favourite opera.
tank slapper said:
Mozart's operas are ... musically much simpler.
That's quite a leap...!To declare Opera unlistenable is just madness - it's horses for courses: dubstep, hip-hop, other things that are heard in Vauxhall Novas have me wanting to smash my own ears in with a spade. On the other hand, after a lovely night at the opera, I'll just as gladly listen to Queen's A Night At The Opera, promptly followed by some AC/DC...
Many styles of music require effort and understanding to really appreciate and enjoy them. The whole point of contemporary 'pop' music is that it requires zero effort.
Take the time to learn something about what you are listening to and it will reward you. 'zooming through iTunes' is not the way!
It's much the same as looking at a Picasso painting and just thinking " that's bloody rubbish - faces don't look like that!"
Take the time to learn something about what you are listening to and it will reward you. 'zooming through iTunes' is not the way!
It's much the same as looking at a Picasso painting and just thinking " that's bloody rubbish - faces don't look like that!"
RedLeicester said:
tank slapper said:
Mozart's operas are ... musically much simpler.
That's quite a leap...!Personally, I don't particularly like most music from the classical period. I don't find it satisfying to listen to. It's a bit too formulaic and rather limited compared to the almost mathematical precision of Bach, and the emotional complexity of the Romantic period. There are exceptions though. Mozart's Requiem is fabulous, and there are some great concertos from that period.
tank slapper said:
What I meant by that was that Mozart's music is far easier to get into that something like Wagner - you are less likely to come up against challenging harmonies and ideas, not that it is any easier to perform or that it is any less well crafted.
Ah yes, a perfectly fair point - likewise puccini, with lots of pretty choons to get ones teeth into. Verdi is more a mixed bag - La Trav et al are quite tuneful, Il Trovatore apart from the foot tappers is pretty hard going in places!Wagner though.... like Mahler, teutonic majesty, but not for everyone.
tank slapper said:
I like Wagner, but then I'm a classical musician and so can appreciate it differently to someone who isn't. .
I don't like Wagner, but then I'm a classical musician and so can appreciate it differently to someone who isn't. . all those f
g predictable formulaic diminished sevenths 
. 
Fair point. I suppose the difference with being a musician listening is that things like dissonance or odd sounding harmonies tend not to be so off-putting as they might be to a casual listener, since there is usually some understanding of what is going on other than it sounding nice or not.I do like Wagner but my favourite composer is Mahler, especially for orchestral works. There is something very satisfying about an orchestra that has over 40 people in the wind and brass sections alone, along with a full choir.
.Interesting and fair points.
I totally accept the limitations of my itunes browsing. It's just an easy shortcut. I also accept that ones often gets out what one puts in.
I spent a wonderful evening last summer at London Temple in Holborn watching my youngest singing in Carmina Burana. His school choir sing to a high standard and parts were captivating, but parts just felt atonal and tedious. However, who could resist being stirred by O Fortuna?
Perhaps seeing a full version live and professionally staged would make a difference. To quote Frank Skinner again, he said that it was the simple ability of the human body to produce such sounds that was the lincher. There are other genres that I might almost say I detest. Hip-hop for one. In that case I struggle to identify talent. I can easily perceive the talent within an opera production, but I simply don't like it.
Is it as simple as that or am I missing out on something that will enrich me. Should I just accept I am more Fascinating Aida than Aida?
I totally accept the limitations of my itunes browsing. It's just an easy shortcut. I also accept that ones often gets out what one puts in.
I spent a wonderful evening last summer at London Temple in Holborn watching my youngest singing in Carmina Burana. His school choir sing to a high standard and parts were captivating, but parts just felt atonal and tedious. However, who could resist being stirred by O Fortuna?
Perhaps seeing a full version live and professionally staged would make a difference. To quote Frank Skinner again, he said that it was the simple ability of the human body to produce such sounds that was the lincher. There are other genres that I might almost say I detest. Hip-hop for one. In that case I struggle to identify talent. I can easily perceive the talent within an opera production, but I simply don't like it.
Is it as simple as that or am I missing out on something that will enrich me. Should I just accept I am more Fascinating Aida than Aida?
I don't like most of the opera that I have heard so far, but I do have a liking for Gilbert and Sullivan. I have a set of DVDs of all their stuff bar the Grand Duke and Utopia Ltd. I had to listen to them all a few times each to get to properly appreciate them, and I like others here can only tolerate as small amount of soprano stuff, but there isn't very much of that, fortunately.
tank slapper said:
but my favourite composer is Mahler, especially for orchestral works. There is something very satisfying about an orchestra that has over 40 people in the wind and brass sections alone, along with a full choir.
Not my favourite composer, but I know what you mean. For me, listening to Mahler is akin to wrapping a warm duvet around oneself.(I'm a Chopin / Schumann person)
Having said that, have a listen to this, played on R3 today on the Lunchtime Programme:
Nikolai Demidenko plays Schubert
Had no idea there were so many classical musicians on here; add me to the list.
There's no doubt that opera can seem pretty inpenetrable. I'm no opera buff but I've seen a few, played in a few, and know some more pretty well.
In order to get into the music, you can do worse than starting to listen to a wide range of arias/bits and pieces. That way, you can find out what you like. No point in sitting through something huge and romantic if you like the simplicity of Mozart!
Once you have perhaps shortlisted a couple you would like to listen to in their entirety, read through a synopsis (I've got Kobbe's Opera book somewhere) so you know the story, sit down with a bottle of wine and the headphones on, with a translation of the libretto, and follow it through.
I once went to see Der Rosenkavalier and, despite being a huge Strauss fan and knowing the Suite of music very well indeed it left me relatively cold! I walked away thinking that there was some fantastic music in there, but most of it was concentrated very nicely into the 20 minute suite and I would rather listen to that without all the warbling getting in the way of the lush orchestral textures!
I also saw the entire Ring Cycle, and even with synopsis, libretto & leitmotif list got hopelessly lost in places, even bored whilst waiting for the "next bit"
I'm no philistine, but listening to stuff like that takes an extraordinary amount of discipline.
Good starting points for listening IMHO would be some Mozart (Cosi fan tutte, Don Giovanni, etc.), late Verdi (Otello, Falstaff), Puccini (La Boheme), Britten (Peter Grimes), etc.
It does attract a lot of snobs IMHO, but just enjoy the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOzMKujnto&fea...
There's no doubt that opera can seem pretty inpenetrable. I'm no opera buff but I've seen a few, played in a few, and know some more pretty well.
In order to get into the music, you can do worse than starting to listen to a wide range of arias/bits and pieces. That way, you can find out what you like. No point in sitting through something huge and romantic if you like the simplicity of Mozart!
Once you have perhaps shortlisted a couple you would like to listen to in their entirety, read through a synopsis (I've got Kobbe's Opera book somewhere) so you know the story, sit down with a bottle of wine and the headphones on, with a translation of the libretto, and follow it through.
I once went to see Der Rosenkavalier and, despite being a huge Strauss fan and knowing the Suite of music very well indeed it left me relatively cold! I walked away thinking that there was some fantastic music in there, but most of it was concentrated very nicely into the 20 minute suite and I would rather listen to that without all the warbling getting in the way of the lush orchestral textures!
I also saw the entire Ring Cycle, and even with synopsis, libretto & leitmotif list got hopelessly lost in places, even bored whilst waiting for the "next bit"
I'm no philistine, but listening to stuff like that takes an extraordinary amount of discipline.
Good starting points for listening IMHO would be some Mozart (Cosi fan tutte, Don Giovanni, etc.), late Verdi (Otello, Falstaff), Puccini (La Boheme), Britten (Peter Grimes), etc.
It does attract a lot of snobs IMHO, but just enjoy the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOzMKujnto&fea...
singlecoil said:
I don't like most of the opera that I have heard so far, but I do have a liking for Gilbert and Sullivan. I have a set of DVDs of all their stuff bar the Grand Duke and Utopia Ltd. I had to listen to them all a few times each to get to properly appreciate them, and I like others here can only tolerate as small amount of soprano stuff, but there isn't very much of that, fortunately.
You're quite right. G & S would be an exception but I see it as musical theatre (rather than musicals, which I dislike for the most part). I see, or perceive, opera as something different. Perhaps it is the soprano aspect I don't like. The idea of listening / watching with some sort of guide may help.I shall certainly take some of the recommendations from this thread and see where they take me.
silverthorn2151 said:
G & S would be an exception but I see it as musical theatre (rather than musicals, which I dislike for the most part). I see, or perceive, opera as something different.
I daresay, but most people would see G&S as being light opera, or comic opera. It is certainly operatic, it just doesn't go as far down the 'opera road' as classical opera.
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